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Feature: Zz Powershare Powershare without unsharing any files!

#101 User is offline   CiccioBastardo 

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Posted 01 October 2005 - 11:24 PM

Ah, if you can't understand the points of difference of my point of view with respect to yours, then I surely won't start explaining you anything more. Reread the thread and you'll find the points above described.
Then I hope you can do the needed resoning to get the differences.
Unfortunately you still got it wrong in the end: it's not up us to tell the other is wrong, but that the other see it differently.
I'm not a math genius, but I perfectly got your point of view by your words. However I have and mantain mine as it suits my network concept better.

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I've already answered that before: SF push is not a boost, since the bandwidth remains the same.
90k every hour = 9MB every 100 hours.
Exactly the same bandwidth.
It's therefore an anti-boost, a balancer.
That's, of course, assuming you use VQB's full chunk transfer, which clips upload to the file's size if SF push was used, so that even if the downloader continues to another file, the downloader won't get more than the small file's size for which the boost was earned.

You eluded the question: does pushing a small file at to 18000x with respect to a verylow priority file breaks some rule?
BTW, with SUQWT I save the unused part of the waiting queue a client asking for a small file. So he will wait less next time.

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Unless I unshare the file before you can reach the top of my upload waiting queue.

If you're downloading said file, that would definately be an issue to accomplish.

You're getting quite inconclusive... is there such a rule or not?

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My rule would include "way" after "same", but I'll ignore that, because the rule your wording misleadingly creates just happens to actually be a rule inforced by the official client: You must upload the same files you download.
My rule is slightly more relaxed than that, simply requiring that you keep the same spirit of equal sharing.
However, the above rule is the very reason I've originally installed eDonkey2000 0.58 on my computer, and I won't stand by as you throw the network down the drain by ignoring it.

Your rule is your indeed. The default official just makes you share the files you are downloading. However it does not enforce the way you have to uplaod them. It's a simple mechanism to enforce no complete file sharer to upload something. And what is this issue with eDonkey?

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You have yet to prove me wrong, or actually refute my proof that you are wrong(though you do claim to do so, even though your arguments end up avoiding the point).

Is this a either/or game? I do not have to provide anything to prove you're wrong. You too could not make me wrong. Your argumentations seen from my point of view are totally a bunch of bullshit. Sorry. We are just seeing things from two different points of view.
You seem to be quite a extremist of some type: "me or nothing".
Well, I may consider Kry's approach hence on.

@Atlan
Yes, the only thing PS has that is dangerous is the credit shaping capacity.
I'm thinking about a solution for that. Though I will keep the PS of partial somehow, as they are very very precious in some circumstances. I'm evaluating the limits of this occasions. However legal clients with full PS feature all have a zz ratio. So at least those users chosing to use such a powerful feature also chose to have their download limited, which does not happens with other mods.
However, doing credit shaping with Powershare is quite "dangerous" as it is not really "targeted" as may be a friend slot or some other illegal automatism.
Whatever SF claims, PS does not make any discrimination, so you may upload to a client that already has a 1:100 ratio with respect to you. And that's not a good way to credit shape, I think.
If you really want to credit shape the bset way is uploading only the file you are downloading, but if you do not want, just put the other files in very low priority, put the partial to credit shape to release, activate a strong CS and voilÓ. That's working 10x better than PS. And that's "legal". Just figure.

/edit: some rephrasing...

This post has been edited by CiccioBastardo: 01 October 2005 - 11:31 PM

The problem is not the client, it's the user
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#102 User is offline   SlugFiller 

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Posted 02 October 2005 - 02:54 PM

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Ah, if you can't understand the points of difference of my point of view with respect to yours

No, I understand perfectly.
Your point of view is that you should have whatever is most convinient for you, at the expense of whomever.
My point of view is that one should maintain fairness to all others, even at one's own expense. I think that my PS-less 3.5:1 ratio more than shows that.
I'll also let the fact that my point of view, if adopted by all, results in utopia, while yours results with, well, the world we live in today, speak for itself.

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You eluded the question: does pushing a small file at to 18000x with respect to a verylow priority file breaks some rule?

It depends. If it's 18000x more bandwidth than another file, then yes, it indeed does.
If it's 18000x less waittime but the same bandwidth as another file, then no.

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BTW, with SUQWT I save the unused part of the waiting queue a client asking for a small file. So he will wait less next time.

That's a valid replacement for SF push. The catch here is that you cannot use both at once, they must be mutually exclusive.
They can also be complementarily exclusive, if you make the restored wait-time be according to the portion of the file-size requested, instead of being taken from an assumed full-chunk transfer. That way, if the small file is fully downloaded - no return is made(already boosted), but if only half of the small file is downloaded - half of the wait time is returned(This may require a bit more math to make it truely balanced, but you get the point).

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Your rule is your indeed.

By "rule" I mean "rule of thumb" and refer to "model", as in a method around which all rules can be formed so that currently unallowed features remains unallowed, activities possible with the official client remain allowed(with the exception of things not intended and impossible to prevent), and a network fully abiding by which remains a properly working and good network for all.
I apologize if my use of mathematical methods confused you. I merely expected you to be familiar with it, due to your interest in physics. Allow me to elaborate:
Consider the "rule" an axiom within a model, such as Lorentz's transformation. It has to abide by previous requirements of the system being modelled, such as Newton's third law, or in this case, prior unallowed and allowed features.
The fact remains, that you have yet to present a model that seperates PS from other previously unallowed features, while maintaining a working network.

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The default official just makes you share the files you are downloading.

That, on the other hand, has nothing to do with my axiom. This is not my rule, this is the network's rule. If you're not happy with it, go to another network.

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However it does not enforce the way you have to uplaod them.

Yes it does. Try to alter the way you upload them in the official(that, of course, excludes altering the source or using external tools). Go ahead, I dare you.

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Is this a either/or game? I do not have to provide anything to prove you're wrong. You too could not make me wrong.

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For example, if you have a PS file which 100 people want, and 10000 people who want other files from you, will those 10000 people have to wait until the 100 people finish download the entire file, or will they get at least a few slots before that?
(Note: Not including slots for the client just starting up with empty queue, and slots when ninety-something of the PS people finish the entire file, of course)

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nope

Consider yourself proven wrong.
This is not oppinion, these are facts.
Those 10000 users(per uploader) are living undeniable proof that anyone who uses PS, anyone is a leecher. This is not a matter of oppinion, this is fact.
Beyond that, anything you say must first either disprove the impact on those 10000 users, or prove that those 10000 users had it coming.

You must also provide a model(as in, a set of axioms) regarding which features are good and which are bad, that says PS is good and community boost is bad, since currently the only available model puts PS along with community boost.

I've proven my point. If you want to disprove it, go ahead. But don't go claiming this is oppinion, because it's not. Otherwise, I may as well claim known physics are an oppinion(which is, technically, a valid point of view, which some people actually take, but I would think you of all people would disagree with that point of view).
Why haven't you clicked yet?

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SlugFiller rule #4: There is absolutely no reason to perform the same discussion twice in parallel, especially if one side is done via PM.
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SlugFiller rule #6: I can understand English, Hebrew, and a bit of Japanese(standard) and Chinese(mandarin), but if you speak to me in anything but English, do expect to be utterly ignored, at best.
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#103 User is offline   Thievery 

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Posted 03 October 2005 - 10:18 AM

SlugFiller, on Oct 2 2005, 02:54 PM, said:

...
Those 10000 users(per uploader) are living undeniable proof that anyone who uses PS, anyone is a leecher. This is not a matter of oppinion, this is fact.
Beyond that, anything you say must first either disprove the impact on those 10000 users, or prove that those 10000 users had it coming.
...


I understand your point but you are taking it too far by calling anyone that uses PS a leecher.

I have a 1:1.3 D/U ratio and i use PS, i'm more leecher than somone that as 1:2 for example?!? The official client allows this.

I don't think you can judge PS without taking in consideration several other factors. Or else i could start ramping about how a 1:2 can be a leecher (i do not believe this!!)

It's true that you are trying to defend fairness (again i believe and agree in your words) but emule like the world isn't fair (unfortunatly :( ) and in this world minorys should be taken in consideration. If i use PS to help a minory (i.e. giving a bust to help spread anime that a very few percentage wants) is it bad? those people feel that emule takes ages to give them what they want without PS (FS are more discriminatory IMHO) just because 10000 want movies...

:flowers:

[edit] typos :-k

This post has been edited by Thievery: 03 October 2005 - 10:20 AM

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#104 User is offline   SlugFiller 

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Posted 03 October 2005 - 03:18 PM

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I have a 1:1.3 D/U ratio and i use PS

I refer you to previous comments regarding ratio.
I want your ratio with non-PS users only(you know, the 10000 I've mentioned above). It doesn't normally appear in the stats, it would require coding to add it. But when you'll look over it, you'll see that you are far from playing fair with those 10000.

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i'm more leecher than somone that as 1:2 for example?!?

If said 1:2 does not use PS - yes, yes you are.

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The official client allows this.

The official client allows 1:4, yes. Actually, it allows far beyond that, something I'm trying to address in another thread.
However, that 1:4 is with the 10000 users. The "1" in your 1:1.3 is purely PS(100), while the majority of the "1.3" is from non-PS users(10000). You are leeching from the non-PS(while being leeched by the PS, but that doesn't make it right since it's your own fault).
The official client does not allow PS, so you can't say the official client allows what you're saying.

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I don't think you can judge PS without taking in consideration several other factors.

Would you name at least one, please?

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It's true that you are trying to defend fairness (again i believe and agree in your words) but emule like the world isn't fair

That's true. However, that's no reason to contribute to the problem. At least keep it as "fair" as the official, don't make it worse. Because PS, indeed, makes it worse.

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If i use PS to help a minory (i.e. giving a bust to help spread anime that a very few percentage wants) is it bad?

If you were just helping a minority, that's a non-issue. But your help to the minority comes through hurting a majority. A majority that treated you in a just and fair manner. What did that majority do to deserve being stepped on like this? Just because they are more, means they are free targets?
(Come to think about it, that point of view - that majorities deserve to be penalized purely for being a majority, seems to be getting common around the world nowadays, but I digress)

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those people feel that emule takes ages to give them what they want without PS (FS are more discriminatory IMHO) just because 10000 want movies...

It's not 10000 that want movies. It's 10000 that could want any number of things. These 10000 are actually 100 different minorities that you are hurting. The only thing that binds them is not being on the single exclusive group of people for which you are PSing.
They do not deserve to be penalized.

And, if you still deserve they should be penalized, then you should be penalized for your downloads as well, no? After all, among the penalized are those downloading the very same things you are downloading.

@zz: How long must I wait for an official statement from you?
Just answer this: What do you think about the 10000 people not downloading scenario? Do you view it as being perfectly legitimate?
Why haven't you clicked yet?

SlugFiller rule #1: Unsolicited PMs is the second most efficient method to piss me off.
SlugFiller rule #2: The first most efficient method is unsolicited eMails.
SlugFiller rule #3: If it started in a thread, it should end in the same thread.
SlugFiller rule #4: There is absolutely no reason to perform the same discussion twice in parallel, especially if one side is done via PM.
SlugFiller rule #5: Does it say "Group: Moderators" under my name? No? Then stop telling me about who you want to ban! I really don't care! Go bother a moderator.
SlugFiller rule #6: I can understand English, Hebrew, and a bit of Japanese(standard) and Chinese(mandarin), but if you speak to me in anything but English, do expect to be utterly ignored, at best.
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#105 User is offline   mkol 

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Posted 30 January 2006 - 10:01 PM

SlugFiller: I agree with you. Powershare should be allowed only if all downloads are stopped or the ratio for non-PS files is >1.0.
Releases in ed2k are overprioritized. If a file has 200 times less availability, it should get 200x priority, not infinite.
If a releaser wants to give some files infinite priority (or a priority higher than 1/availability), he should stop all downloads.
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#106 User is offline   Maninho 

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Posted 31 January 2006 - 12:26 PM

mkol, on Jan 30 2006, 08:01 PM, said:

If a releaser wants to give some files infinite priority (or a priority higher than 1/availability), he should stop all downloads.
View Post


Is it fair to deny downloads to releasers? I am sure there will be people stopping releasing files if you deny their downloads, is it what you really want?
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#107 User is offline   Lurker0 

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Posted 02 February 2006 - 07:36 PM

mkol, on Jan 30 2006, 10:01 PM, said:

SlugFiller: I agree with you. Powershare should be allowed only if all downloads are stopped or the ratio for non-PS files is >1.0.
Having ADSL line like 128/256 or even 128/512 (which is usual in some countries) it is hard to have uploads more than downloads. Nevertheless, my u/d ratio is 1.01:1 with 128/256 ADSL.

Now... what's wrong if I always have PSed the latest ZZ mod and small files like cue sheets and covers? Also, though I'm not a releaser, I usually support releases by PS them until I upload the downloaded file at least once. Please explain me why I'm leecher! Sure I don't fit restrictions that you propose!

You see, you try to restrict the tool based on your very limited understanding how it can be used. It's just like to prohibit all the knives just because they can be used to kill... or alcohol at all because some people drink too much...

This post has been edited by Lurker0: 02 February 2006 - 07:37 PM

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#108 User is offline   Atlan[GEDC] 

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Posted 03 February 2006 - 04:46 AM

if at least a small fraction of bandwidth could be used for non PS/FS upload,

as i suggested some time ago, i bet the network wouldn't have a problem with
these unlimited powershares of incomplete files.

for now, its a too mighty tool imho.

and no, i would not like forcing releasers to stop all downloads, this would really be a bit over the top ;)
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#109 User is offline   coluche 

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Posted 03 February 2006 - 09:51 PM

Lurker0, on Feb 2 2006, 08:36 PM, said:

mkol, on Jan 30 2006, 10:01 PM, said:

SlugFiller: I agree with you. Powershare should be allowed only if all downloads are stopped or the ratio for non-PS files is >1.0.
Having ADSL line like 128/256 or even 128/512 (which is usual in some countries) it is hard to have uploads more than downloads. Nevertheless, my u/d ratio is 1.01:1 with 128/256 ADSL.

Now... what's wrong if I always have PSed the latest ZZ mod and small files like cue sheets and covers? Also, though I'm not a releaser, I usually support releases by PS them until I upload the downloaded file at least once. Please explain me why I'm leecher! Sure I don't fit restrictions that you propose!

You see, you try to restrict the tool based on your very limited understanding how it can be used. It's just like to prohibit all the knives just because they can be used to kill... or alcohol at all because some people drink too much...
View Post


You are not seen as a leecher.

but imagine some paranoid protected-files-downloaders.
They put Zzul and various linux-distros and such on powershare -> all their upload. but they continue to download other stuff (movies, whatever) of which they never send a byte to anyone. I forgot the name for this, it was something like "distinctive leeching" or "selective leeching".

and that IS bad, just imagine more people doing this. It might happen one is showing such behaviour without the intention to, if you set PS careless(-ly?) or use a Mod with auto-PS.
So I'm very happy that autopowershare in the MorphXT Mod (as it seems to be a wellspread Mod) is now very restricted.

btw. Connections as You described are not the worst. Here in Germany they typically come 1:8 up:down, more expensive ones even with 1:12.
It's Screamin' Jay Hawkins and he's a Wild Man, so bug off!
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#110 User is offline   Ludscha 

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Posted 03 February 2006 - 11:08 PM

i tried the new morph with the so called "auto-powershare" and its in my opinion complete useless for my releases, so i switched back to zzul
leecher or paranoid users always find a way to restrict uploads, its no answer to restrict such a good feature. Overfeaturing and overrestricting is a secure way to blow a good software to insignificance, cause of nobody using it.

just my 2 cents
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#111 User is offline   coluche 

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Posted 04 February 2006 - 09:21 PM

Ludscha, on Feb 4 2006, 12:08 AM, said:

leecher or paranoid users always find a way to restrict uploads, its no answer to restrict such a good feature.

I only brougt up those copyright-paranoia-leechers to show an extreme example of how PS can be harmful.
More of concern is, that with careless manual setting PS or with unrestricted PS in Mods clients may end up with the same result : uploading only these files while still downloading those files.
about PS restrictions : keep in mind that PS stopping on a file does not mean that the file does not upload any more. someone else explains better : http://forum.emule-p...ndpost&p=707955

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Overfeaturing ... is a secure way to blow a good software to insignificance, cause of nobody using it.
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:) That's why I wait (patiently) for Zzul/Bastard on 0.47, although I have no complaints with the official 0.47 now in use :)

coluche
It's Screamin' Jay Hawkins and he's a Wild Man, so bug off!
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#112 User is offline   DavidXanatos 

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Posted 04 February 2006 - 10:26 PM

Just a small question what exactly is "auto-powershare" and how does it works?
NeoLoader is a new file sharing client, supporting ed2k/eMule, Bittorent and one click hosters,
it is the first client to be able to download form multiple networks the same file.
NL provides the first fully decentralized scalable torrent and DDL keyword search,
it implements an own novel anonymous file sharing network, providing anonymity and deniability to its users,
as well as many other new features.
It is written in C++ with Qt and is available for Windows, Linux and MacOS.
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#113 User is offline   tHeWiZaRdOfDoS 

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Posted 05 February 2006 - 09:08 AM

In theory, Auto-PS should watch your shares and powershare those that have below XX complete sources.
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#114 User is offline   Liz81 

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Posted 09 February 2007 - 11:44 PM

is this for any versions of emule? I have v0.47c. If not, where do I find one just like this for v0.47c? I also don't see a link to download this. I'm suprrised we've reached the sixth page and no one asked for a download link.

This post has been edited by Liz81: 10 February 2007 - 12:07 AM

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#115 User is offline   MadlyMad 

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Posted 10 February 2007 - 02:14 AM

I'm surprised you find the right forum but the wrong topic :angelnot:

just take a look at this page to download last version of zzul

enjoy :punk:

The extreme limit of wisdom, that is what the public calls madness.
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