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What Happened To Emule? Last release April 7, 2010

#1 User is offline   grizel 

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Posted 18 January 2015 - 07:53 PM

Hello

Out of curiosity, why has there been no new release of eMule in four years?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EMule

Did people move on to other P2P software?

Thank you.

This post has been edited by grizel: 18 January 2015 - 07:54 PM

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#2 User is offline   Zangune 

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Posted 18 January 2015 - 08:35 PM

View Postgrizel, on 18 January 2015 - 08:53 PM, said:

Hello

Hi!

View Postgrizel, on 18 January 2015 - 08:53 PM, said:

Out of curiosity, why has there been no new release of eMule in four years?

I believe because developers didn't have the time and the will to do that.

View Postgrizel, on 18 January 2015 - 08:53 PM, said:


Wikipedia is a good place to start, but you should not trust it too much. This is a side note.

View Postgrizel, on 18 January 2015 - 08:53 PM, said:

Did people move on to other P2P software?

Maybe. I believe people have less interest in file sharing applications, too.

I hope my answer will be helpful, but you may find interesting to hear others' opinion that may be completely different from mine, so don't take my words as something different from Zangune's opinion (anyway I am an active user of this community, just to let you know).
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#3 User is offline   grizel 

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Posted 18 January 2015 - 10:06 PM

Thanks. So people either 1) no longer download files or 2) only watch movies through streaming?
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#4 User is offline   Zangune 

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Posted 19 January 2015 - 08:00 AM

You are welcome.
To me the answer is yes to both, I mean at least people do it (1) less than the past.

This post has been edited by Zangune: 19 January 2015 - 08:07 AM

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#5 User is offline   Mannnein 

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Posted 19 January 2015 - 12:23 PM

Hi,

just my 2 cents to this topic.

I think there is a 3rd point.

People are using other software to get there stuff, new and up to date. They want it fast, they do not want to share and they want to use there big (and payed) Internet connections.

I will talk about my experience in Germany. Today a Internet connection from my cable network operator is cheap.
You get 150.000 Kbit/s Download for 50 € a month. In combination with TV an telephone it will become cheaper. Ok, the upload is really bad but for the usual "I want my stuff now" user it is not important.

eMule is not the software to get "Full Speed" on 150.000 Kbit/s after 10 seconds. (or ever ;-P )

Additional to this, the alternatives become cheaper. A (so called) Multi Hoster is giving you Full Speed (up to 37 MB/s) to more then 10 One click Hostern, Usenet and Torrents. And this for only 50€ a year. Even Usenet provider become more cheaper. For 5 to 10 € a month you get 50.000 kBits/s Download speed and the possibility to download over 2000 days old files.

The positives sites from emule are not important for the most user. They are not looking for "old stuff". They have no interest in sharing. They have no interest in a stable program which can run 100 of day with out a crash.

And a 4th point.
With One click Hostern and Usenet is no risk to get cough because of copyright violations.
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#6 User is offline   DavidXanatos 

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Posted 22 January 2015 - 08:52 AM

Hosters are in a class for their own, they are very popular in germany and some other very oppressive countries,
but globally the major player is Bittorent.

It is fast it saturates my 150MB/s pipe with only few torrents and almost all video torrents can be started watched just a few seconds after the torrent started.

Now why is that its because the Torrent protocols egalitarian approach to upload gives every body decent a speed right from the start.
There is no queue in which a user would have to wait first and there is no bullshit credit system that would discriminate between users, having no queue and just keeping useful connections open mitigates the issues closed ports (a.k.a. lowID) cause, such that users without open ports are not severely handicapped.
Torrent has Nat-Traversal enabling even more closed ports users to not be handicapped by the system.

Now:

eMule not just keeps the bullshit credit system they added a decade ago a overhead waisting feature called Secure User Identification to cryptographically protect that stupid idea.

While there are some mods out there that added proper Nat-Traversal and there is even a server side support for that, eMule never adopted this feature, quite the contrary, they are happy to maintain a system that would handicap closed ports users.
Why cause they want to educate the users how to open their ports, thats better for the network they say. Well the small detail thay forgot here is that users are lazy and why mess around with the router just get a torrent and start sucking.

When designing a software for the masses and in the end every P2P system is for the masses or its pointless from the start, you need to take into account the psychology of masses and trying to force a user to do anything is the most stupid thing one can do. If you apply pressure to a user the user will slide to an other provider that is less oppressive.

Bittorents approach to make everythign as simple as possible and as user error tolerant as possible and having fast transfer speed form the start, the as the history showed the right approach.


Now, the eMule protocol and Kad is very need and advanced but it simply fails to satisfy user demands due to very few yet essential poor design decisions.


David X.

This post has been edited by DavidXanatos: 22 January 2015 - 08:53 AM

NeoLoader is a new file sharing client, supporting ed2k/eMule, Bittorent and one click hosters,
it is the first client to be able to download form multiple networks the same file.
NL provides the first fully decentralized scalable torrent and DDL keyword search,
it implements an own novel anonymous file sharing network, providing anonymity and deniability to its users,
as well as many other new features.
It is written in C++ with Qt and is available for Windows, Linux and MacOS.
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#7 User is offline   Some Support 

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Posted 23 January 2015 - 12:21 AM

Quote

queue [...] there is no bullshit credit system[...] Bittorrent better [...]


An interesting topic. I can hardly remember that ever being discussed during the last 12 years.

#8 User is offline   UserEmule 

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Posted 16 February 2015 - 07:50 AM

View Postgrizel, on 18 January 2015 - 01:53 PM, said:

Hello

Out of curiosity, why has there been no new release of eMule in four years?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EMule

Did people move on to other P2P software?

Thank you.


Last I was here I read about this discussion on another thread. What I read then was basically "If its not broken, why fix it?"
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#9 User is offline   erroneous 

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Posted 01 March 2015 - 11:59 PM

Initially I agree with everything said by DavidXanatos, I do not want to add anything else except that what i still notice. Been using eMule since 2004-2010. After a five years I mainly use only private tracker dedicated to what i like to share/seeding or downloading, torrent application ofcourse. However told myself a week ago give a try to eMule back, just to know what's goin on? so i did, installed, configured and gave a shot to a file that have only two users. Been 3 week and transfer only got 46MB download, i leave one day 24/7 open just got 12MB, I was on query at number 80, did a close for my purposes open back and as usual i am not on 80 but 1000 or 1500 on pending. The query still hasn't changed since the glory days. The query or credit system is "The biggest failure of this application" and until it exist will force the last user to remove/unninstall application as i am doing right now.

I am sorry to say this: but this application can't see the future train, unless a big bang happen.
Kindly regards and many thanks for all the past works.
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#10 User is offline   inman 

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Posted 17 March 2015 - 01:10 PM

I agree with what has been said here. It's sad but true that Emule is old hack now. There are rarely more than 400,000 users connected to the servers at once.
Torrents - seedboxes, more users & less files, no credit system = much faster speeds

Still, Emule could be much faster. A file could be downloaded from elsewhere by 10 users (same file & same hash) & 1 person downloads it from these 10 users and great speeds. However, most Emule users don't download from elsewhere and add to the network. The majority aren't interested in uploading large amounts when they already have the file.

I bet YouTube and NetFlix has also caused a reduction in P2P users also.
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#11 User is offline   fox88 

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Posted 17 March 2015 - 02:36 PM

View Postinman, on 17 March 2015 - 04:10 PM, said:

no credit system = much faster speeds

No jokes? There are people who love to give a huge negative publicity to credit system.

View Postinman, on 17 March 2015 - 04:10 PM, said:

The majority aren't interested in uploading large amounts when they already have the file.

Or even scared, if the stuff is of questionable nature or origin.

View Postinman, on 17 March 2015 - 04:10 PM, said:

I bet YouTube and NetFlix has also caused a reduction in P2P users also.

There is no need to download what you can watch in youtube for free and any time.
Flick services are not that easily accessible everywhere, but those could be a good source for P2P. :P
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#12 User is offline   inman 

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Posted 17 March 2015 - 05:53 PM

View Postfox88, on 17 March 2015 - 02:36 PM, said:

No jokes? There are people who love to give a huge negative publicity to credit system.

I'm not sure what you mean? Emule's credit system worked well back in the day, but in the modern would I just think there is too much variation in upload speed between users
for it to work effectively. There are a lot of Emule users from Israel, latin America and China who have much worse upload speed than a lot of the westerners. I have fibre and if I leave it on for a week non-stop I'll have uploaded a terabyte +. A lot of the users I will upload to will get the whole file from me and I'll never see them again. I gain nothing from raising my credit score, and even if I do see them again my download from them will be much slower than my upload to them. Fair?
Also, if you upload is good, why not just go to a private tracker and maintain the required ratio? At least you will get good speeds in return.

Quote

Or even scared, if the stuff is of questionable nature or origin.

It's easy enough to verify a file yourself with the right resources. Maybe not for the average user though.

Quote

There is no need to download what you can watch in youtube for free and any time.
Flick services are not that easily accessible everywhere, but those could be a good source for P2P. :P

YouTube video may be deleted. Of course there are a lot of documentaries & music but not always in the best quality. Scene releases are always perfect unless nuked. Again, the average user doesn't know/care about this.
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#13 User is offline   DavidXanatos 

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Posted 18 March 2015 - 07:36 AM

View Postinman, on 17 March 2015 - 05:53 PM, said:

Emule's credit system worked well back in the day.


I would question even this, in my opinion this always was mostly a placebo, it worked only cause people believed it would make a significant difference and therefor cranked up their upload.


I'm of cause not saying it head no effect, obviously it allowed people with a lot of upload to progress in queue faster, I assert only that for most of the users independent of their actual settings it was a bad thing. Cause the benefiting clients Ware this that run 24/7 on bigger pipes and all users that did not head a very fat pipe or did not run 24/7 needed more active hours in total to finish a file that they woudl need if there would be no CS or they would run their client 24/7.


In my opinion eMule's Queue and CS was always about leeching from the small people for the benefit of the hard core 24/7 users.
If eMules design would be about fairness it would have SQWT (Save Queue Wait Time) from the start so not to give and significant benefits to 24/7 users over and make only the sum of overall total wait time coutn instead of only the wait time waited in one peace.


SS said that some things he does not remember discussing on this board thats true, many things ware not said as they would not be politically correct here and people gave a damn about their opinion, I think today no one cares anymore, at least I don't :D

David X.
NeoLoader is a new file sharing client, supporting ed2k/eMule, Bittorent and one click hosters,
it is the first client to be able to download form multiple networks the same file.
NL provides the first fully decentralized scalable torrent and DDL keyword search,
it implements an own novel anonymous file sharing network, providing anonymity and deniability to its users,
as well as many other new features.
It is written in C++ with Qt and is available for Windows, Linux and MacOS.
0

#14 User is offline   Some Support 

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Posted 18 March 2015 - 09:40 AM

View PostDavidXanatos, on 18 March 2015 - 07:36 AM, said:

SS said that some things he does not remember discussing on this board thats true, many things ware not said as they would not be politically correct here and people gave a damn about their opinion, I think today no one cares anymore, at least I don't :D


Regardless of the other discussion, that is complete BS. Since day 1, there were ALWAYS people blaming the credit system for everything bad ever happend in human history and others who defended it. There were pages of discussions where any detail and effect was picked apart and besides pure trolling there was never any moderation on that. Some decade old threads on the board might have been purged by now, but I'm sure most of them are still there (dev section never get purged afaik) to be proof of that.

So please stop playing the brave hero which starts to speak out the truth after all this years of being silenced.

And in case you missed it unintentionally rather than trying to misquote me: That quote was sarcastic and meant the opposite.

#15 User is offline   fox88 

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Posted 18 March 2015 - 10:03 AM

View Postinman, on 17 March 2015 - 08:53 PM, said:

I'm not sure what you mean?

The effect of CS is minor, though not totally negligible. Saying 'CS kills eMule' sounds funny.
Please keep in mind that David is promoting his client (in a way).

View Postinman, on 17 March 2015 - 08:53 PM, said:

There are a lot of Emule users from Israel, latin America and China who have much worse upload speed than a lot of the westerners.

China: https://www.techinasia.com/internetz/. This is much better than V.92 modems.
People there should drop their stupid mods/clients (Xunlei, for example): download speeds are often below 1-3KByte/s (provided they are lucky enough not to be banned for protocol violations).

View Postinman, on 17 March 2015 - 08:53 PM, said:

Fair?

Depends on definition of fareness.
If you are counting every bit and want an immediate payback, then the answer is negative.
On the other hand, you still get files much faster than many other people. Why not to share if saved traffic is as good as lost?

This post has been edited by fox88: 18 March 2015 - 10:06 AM

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#16 User is offline   DavidXanatos 

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Posted 18 March 2015 - 10:25 AM

View PostSome Support, on 18 March 2015 - 09:40 AM, said:

Regardless of the other discussion, that is complete BS. Since day 1, there were ALWAYS people blaming the credit system for everything bad ever happend in human history and others who defended it.


And now after a decade BitTorent is top and eMule is slowly fading into obscurity,
guess now its obvious what position was right. :devil:

I mean lets be honest, from a practical standpoint the only differences nowadays between BitTorrent and eMule are
1. eMule has a keyword search
2. the two systems have different approach to bandwidth distribution,
3. BitTorrent has Nat-Traversal
All other differences are eider not longer present or not relevant to everyday user experience.

Or do you see this assertion faulty, is there any other signifficant difference?


Now, anybody wanting to assert that the reason BitTorrent surpassed eMule by far is other than the different approach to Upload?
No? Yes? Be honest!

Why is the world of P2P mostly running on BitTorrent nowadays and not on eMule?


PS: Sarcasm does not work on stuff that happened a decade ago ;)
I know for me that I did not even remotely ranted and flamed about CS as it would have deserved it.


David X.

This post has been edited by DavidXanatos: 18 March 2015 - 10:29 AM

NeoLoader is a new file sharing client, supporting ed2k/eMule, Bittorent and one click hosters,
it is the first client to be able to download form multiple networks the same file.
NL provides the first fully decentralized scalable torrent and DDL keyword search,
it implements an own novel anonymous file sharing network, providing anonymity and deniability to its users,
as well as many other new features.
It is written in C++ with Qt and is available for Windows, Linux and MacOS.
0

#17 User is offline   Some Support 

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Posted 18 March 2015 - 12:29 PM

View PostDavidXanatos, on 18 March 2015 - 10:25 AM, said:

And now after a decade BitTorent is top and eMule is slowly fading into obscurity,
guess now its obvious what position was right. :devil:


Or you could see it this way: eMule was the second most popular filesharing programm ever (even before neoloader I might add ;) ) in the prime of filesharing. Hard to argue that it did a lot wrong back then. The reason why it has less users these days are manifold and hard to compare to bittorrent, which takes a different approach on many things. Narrowing it to one factor is pointless and by this logic other filesharing networks like gnutella, directdc and so on shrinked because of the wrong credit system too.

Besides the fact that there is a multi-mullion dollar company behind the bittorrent client and eMule's development has slowed down a lot in the last 5 years.

#18 User is offline   DavidXanatos 

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Posted 18 March 2015 - 01:37 PM

I really don't think if its that complicated, of cause there many many differences and aspects to consider.

But what is the most important aspect, the users choice to use or not use a particular application. This is often not Dependant on technical aspects but only on the subjective user experience. And this can be simplified down to a minimal subset of attributes:
1. content availability
2. download speed
3. user interface (least important and in the day all ware kind of the same)


Now, eMules "download speed" suxx in comparation to BitTorrents, it always did.


Quote

Besides the fact that there is a multi-mullion dollar company behind the bittorrent client and eMule's development has slowed down a lot in the last 5 years.

You think the Reason "PopcornTime" is BT based and no ed2k based has anything to do with the millions of BT.inc? Seriously? Seriously?

Or whats more likely it has something todo with the fact that BitTorrents egalitarian approach to upload allows people to start watching a file while its being downloaded in real time.


BitTorrent allows for fast downloads for damn fast downloads, eMule does not, as simple as that.


And download speed is a major quality of a P2P application.

And content availability, is before everything even before any technical aspect (like a keyword search) a function of the user base. BitTorent Suxx in therms of content search/discovery, in fact it does not have any. Still through the large user base that creates magnet link sites its easier to find a torrent with the desired content that a ed2k download on emule.


In my opinion eMule should go with lets leech the fat pipes and 24/7 runners to the benefit of the 90% of casual users that just want to get some content.
BitTorrent is doing exactly that (private trackers excluded) and obviously is extremely successful.


Look, I'm not writing that just for my personal emotional relief, but still in the hope that some day you (as probably the only dev left in controll ob the mainline eMule release) may rethink your position on not including Nat-T and keeping queue and CS and do something revolutionary that may make eMule fit for the decades to come, instead of sticking to a decade old decisions and letting eMule fayed slowly into obscurity.


David X.

This post has been edited by DavidXanatos: 18 March 2015 - 01:42 PM

NeoLoader is a new file sharing client, supporting ed2k/eMule, Bittorent and one click hosters,
it is the first client to be able to download form multiple networks the same file.
NL provides the first fully decentralized scalable torrent and DDL keyword search,
it implements an own novel anonymous file sharing network, providing anonymity and deniability to its users,
as well as many other new features.
It is written in C++ with Qt and is available for Windows, Linux and MacOS.
3

#19 User is offline   inman 

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Posted 18 March 2015 - 04:46 PM

View Postfox88, on 18 March 2015 - 10:03 AM, said:

China: https://www.techinasia.com/internetz/. This is much better than V.92 modems.
People there should drop their stupid mods/clients (Xunlei, for example): download speeds are often below 1-3KByte/s (provided they are lucky enough not to be banned for protocol violations).

These mods like Xunlei have been around for years. Banning only partially solves the problem as it just offloads the problem to another user. They are obviously not being banned by every client or they would just give up. These users (and other poor uploaders from poorer countries and lowIDs) just clog up Emule. No matter how much I upload, my queue always has someone waiting. Plus, all those with poor credits eventually filter down to me as I get rid of all those with good credits quickly.
What motivation does one with good UL speeds have to keep uploading to these type of users? Given: A) Return is minimal. B ) Return raises electricity bills. The answer is not a lot - one just does it out of kindness.
The program also adds the problem, as it always had the philosophy of 'file sharing' and not 'file trading.' To get the most out of Emule you must download many files simultaneously, and leave it running for days, but this also causes a huge backlog of queues. Users who run 24/7 (and the lucky ones) are at an advantage because of these high queues. As mentioned, depending on the files of course, return can not be great either.
In short, the credit system would work better on an even 'playing field' where upload & download speeds don't vary greatly and casual users (who still uploaded great amounts) weren't punished because of time restrictions. I would argue there was more of an even playing field before the days of fibre optic, accessible VPS etc.

Quote

Depends on definition of fareness.
If you are counting every bit and want an immediate payback, then the answer is negative.
On the other hand, you still get files much faster than many other people. Why not to share if saved traffic is as good as lost?

You could also counter that by saying a lot of people with poor credit scores, poor uploaders & immediate unsharers are getting files faster than many other people just because they luckily downloading from someone with a fast connection.
I have had cases where I have uploaded 95% of an incomplete file to someone, they have the other 5% but unshare/go offline before I can get the chunk from them. I think that goes against any definition of fairness.

This post has been edited by inman: 18 March 2015 - 04:48 PM

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#20 User is offline   fox88 

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Posted 18 March 2015 - 06:53 PM

View Postinman, on 18 March 2015 - 07:46 PM, said:

These users (and other poor uploaders from poorer countries and lowIDs) just clog up Emule.

I heard that even Ferrari owners have no choice but to use public roads. How fair is that?

View Postinman, on 18 March 2015 - 07:46 PM, said:

To get the most out of Emule you must download many files simultaneously, and leave it running for days, but this also causes a huge backlog of queues.

To get the most for you personally? That would be fair for you, but not necessarily for others.
Huge queues (and Queue full condition) are signs of improper usage/configuration - usually sharing too many popular files for available bandwidth.
That would be bad strategy for the network in general.

View Postinman, on 18 March 2015 - 07:46 PM, said:

Return raises electricity bills. The answer is not a lot - one just does it out of kindness.

eMule community invented a few sayings.
If you want it fast, go buy it. If you want if for free, have patience.


And a note about poor credit score and punisment (that kind of language is quite revealing, as mentioned above).
No matter how negative is your balance, you will be treated the same way - as a newcomer without any credits; no punishments applied.

View Postinman, on 18 March 2015 - 07:46 PM, said:

In short, the credit system would work better on an even 'playing field' where upload & download speeds don't vary greatly and casual users (who still uploaded great amounts) weren't punished because of time restrictions.

Dreaming about perfectly fair system in imagined network might be entertaining.
But in reality all attempts to design better CS failed so far. Would you dare?
If you would I might suggest you to read old topics on the subject - all this was discussed too many times with zero output.

This post has been edited by fox88: 18 March 2015 - 10:52 PM

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