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Support For Offsystem Support for the Owner Free File System Rate Topic: -----

#41 User is offline   DavidXanatos 

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 02:40 PM

View PostStulle, on 22 February 2012 - 02:24 PM, said:

Yes, I do. If you don't you are even worse than I thought. Because you did not just make it look like rape is not persecuted to the fullest possible extent but you also expect it to be okay if it is not done. You have basically just applied the same hypocrisy that you pretend oppose.

It is not hypocrisy to believe that the right of a few hundred innocents to their privacy are more important that prosecution.
I mean where would you draw the line, mass House searches?

Quote

Edit: The nature of the crime should not have an influence on the persecution, only on the penalty.

It should very much, for example it should not be allowed to use a House searches to prosecute a speeding offender.

See the German"Verhältnismäßigkeitsprinzip".

David X.
NeoLoader is a new file sharing client, supporting ed2k/eMule, Bittorent and one click hosters,
it is the first client to be able to download form multiple networks the same file.
NL provides the first fully decentralized scalable torrent and DDL keyword search,
it implements an own novel anonymous file sharing network, providing anonymity and deniability to its users,
as well as many other new features.
It is written in C++ with Qt and is available for Windows, Linux and MacOS.
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#42 User is offline   Stulle 

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 02:51 PM

No need to search the house to find the DNA of a rapist or identity of a speeding driver, is there? Reasonable measures will have to be established, which means the measures will have to be beneficial to the investigation. This is exactly what it boils down to, if it is beneficial and it helps solving cases and I did not do anything wrong I got nothing to fear. It might be an inconvenience, sure, but would I rather help stopping a rapist or blindly defend my "right for anonymity"? I'd help finding the rapist. And if you would rather have more women suffer you should ask yourself, aren't you just as morally rotten as the rapist?

To put it back in perspective a bit, I do not agree with lawyers extracting the personal information of IPs from thousands of users and I do not agree with the disproportional maximum penalties written in our laws when comparing crimes such as assault, rape and copying copyrighted materials. But I do believe that we cannot bedevil any measure implemented to solve real issues just because it is exploited by the content industry. It is them and the enablers of such exploitation that we need to fight. Ignoring real threats and commenting any new law only from one perspective - how it will effect the poor mp3 downloading user who is scared shitless, yet too cheap to buy his music - is not democracy, it's stubborn, immature and short sighted. Something that is unfortunately very prominent in the whole anonymous and pirate party movement.
I am an emule-web.de member and fan!

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No, there will not be a new version of my mods. No, I do not want your PM. No, I am certain, use the board and quit sending PMs. No, I am not kidding, there will not be a new version of my mods just because of YOU asking for it!
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#43 User is offline   DavidXanatos 

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 02:59 PM

View PostStulle, on 22 February 2012 - 02:51 PM, said:

No need to search the house to find the DNA of a rapist or identity of a speeding driver, is there? Reasonable measures will have to be established, which means the measures will have to be beneficial to the investigation. This is exactly what it boils down to, if it is beneficial and it helps solving cases and I did not do anything wrong I got nothing to fear.

So what about the following case:
the rapist is taking something to remember the victim, its jewelry or a peace of hair, but don't leaves any DNA behind.
So to catch him you will need to search the homes of all people leaving in the area looking for the memorabilia he took.
This is beneficial to the investigation and no lesser measure will work.
So would you be OK with 100+ homes of completely innocent people being searched?
EDIT: the very point is that by compromising your privacy you are _not_ helping to find the rapist, cause the search of your flat or taking of your DNA will turn a negative result.
Helping would be if you would allow a flat of you and your friend be searched those turning your friend in, for example. Simply doing something that would return a positive result

View PostStulle, on 22 February 2012 - 02:51 PM, said:

It might be an inconvenience, sure, but would I rather help stopping a rapist or blindly defend my "right for anonymity"?

Well, the victim is not the only one with rights, you have rights to, you know.
I don't think someone is morally rotten who does not want to allow his home being searched or his DNA being takes well knowing that he himselv is innocent.


View PostStulle, on 22 February 2012 - 02:51 PM, said:

But I do believe that we cannot bedevil any measure implemented to solve real issues just because it is exploited by the content industry.

But all those measures ware not really implemented to prosecute real crime, thay sole purpose was to be exploited by the content industry.

See here: http://www.hardwarel...ng-nutzlos.html
The German Max-Planck-Instituts says that IP loging is compeltly irrelevant for prosecution of serious crime.


Don't you think it is morally rotten to inflict harm on innocents only because one is not able to effectively without collateral damage find the real perpetrator?


PS: how about equipping every human with a GPS implant in order to catch speeding driver, it is in the end a working measure that would tackle the issue very effective?

David X.

This post has been edited by DavidXanatos: 22 February 2012 - 03:17 PM

NeoLoader is a new file sharing client, supporting ed2k/eMule, Bittorent and one click hosters,
it is the first client to be able to download form multiple networks the same file.
NL provides the first fully decentralized scalable torrent and DDL keyword search,
it implements an own novel anonymous file sharing network, providing anonymity and deniability to its users,
as well as many other new features.
It is written in C++ with Qt and is available for Windows, Linux and MacOS.
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#44 User is offline   Stulle 

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 03:18 PM

Find a judge who is willing to let you search the house of people matching the profile and I won't object. Finding such a judge is something entirely different. Still, if I had the police on my door threshold showing me the according papers and giving me the according reasoning I don't see why I would try to hinder them. They have any right to be there and since I did not do it I have nothing to fear. Also note that any house search warrant tells you specifically what is being searched for and which places can be searched. Anything that does not immediately poses a threat is not subject to the warrant and can not be confiscated or taken into consideration. Just the same as no DNA that has been tested negative in a mass DNA test can be stored for future reference!

I do have rights and for the sake of the people these rights can be limited by a judges orders. Defending yourself against this principal of any lawful state indicates you have either something to hide or are generally obsessed with not agreeing with most any thing the state ever does. Again, if there is nothing to fear for me I have no morally legitimate reason to prevent any judge ordered action from being commenced if it serves the people. Still doing so shows that I blatantly disregard the good of the people out of pure egoism. Egoism being one of this society's worst threats does not really help your case, either.

No, not all logging has been introduced for the content industry however much you want to make it look like that. The first and most aggressive measures were introduced in the USA after 9/11 out of fear for terror, however realistic that is. I am not saying it is realistic, I am saying the measures are not all created at the whim of the content industry. Also, ACTA has some reasonable ideas that are important to protect our markets which are essential to our economy, our society.

Thanks for posting the link to that study. I read about it a while back and I actually thought about bringing it into this discussion earlier myself. The funny thing about the study is that you can read it in two ways. One is that the measures in question do not serve their intended purpose. The other being that these measures are not serving to ease the content industries legal struggle against copyright infringement either. Now that is funny, isn't it? Especially if you think about the situation in Germany where people were being sued even before this particular kind of logging was introduced, when this logging was active and after this logging was again forbidden by the Bundesverfassungsgericht. Now what does this tell us? That apparently the only one who is actually affected by this kind of logging is the ISP who has to pay for the hard- and software to log whatever the government wants them to log. How does that sound for irony?

Take the above paragraph also as an reply to your "inflicted harm" theory.

And again, don't try to mock my intelligence by suggesting ludicrous things like GPS for any human. The internet is a tool. Using it is a privilege, not a right. Using it makes you leave traces, everybody needs to be aware of that.

This post has been edited by Stulle: 22 February 2012 - 03:36 PM

I am an emule-web.de member and fan!

[Imagine there was a sarcasm meter right here!]

No, there will not be a new version of my mods. No, I do not want your PM. No, I am certain, use the board and quit sending PMs. No, I am not kidding, there will not be a new version of my mods just because of YOU asking for it!
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#45 User is offline   DavidXanatos 

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 03:38 PM

View PostStulle, on 22 February 2012 - 03:18 PM, said:

Find a judge who is willing to let you search the house of people matching the profile and I won't object. Finding such a judge is something entirely different. Still, if I had the police on my door threshold showing me the according papers and giving me the according reasoning I don't see why I would try to hinder them. They have any right to be there and since I did not do it I have nothing to fear.

Well, they steal a few hours of your time, leave a total mess, and may break some things (may bey some irreplaceable things), and since you did not do it they wont find anything, besides may be legal stuff that might make you really really uncomfortable and ashamed.

Quote

I do have rights and for the sake of the people these rights can be limited by a judges orders. Defending yourself against this principal of any lawful state indicates you have either something to hide or are generally obsessed with not agreeing with most any thing the state ever does.

I don't agree with that,
if they would have a good reason of suspicion i wouldn't object, but if they would have a judges order to search every flat in the entire block i would object very much as this would not be reasonable anymore in my opinion.

Quote

Again, if there is nothing to fear for me I have no morally legitimate reason to prevent any judge ordered action from being commenced if it serves the people.

Nothing to fear except:
They leaving they dirty foot prints on your bed.
And accidentally breaking your irreplaceable collection of [enter something fragile].
May by even making a few wholes you your walls cause they suspected there to be some hidden compartment.

Its simple, strangers going through every bit of your personal live and belongings is a violation, its a little bit like rape, its painful, its more than enough reason to not being on with them doing that.

Even if they payed for the damage its still a shipload of work to clean it all up.


David X.
NeoLoader is a new file sharing client, supporting ed2k/eMule, Bittorent and one click hosters,
it is the first client to be able to download form multiple networks the same file.
NL provides the first fully decentralized scalable torrent and DDL keyword search,
it implements an own novel anonymous file sharing network, providing anonymity and deniability to its users,
as well as many other new features.
It is written in C++ with Qt and is available for Windows, Linux and MacOS.
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#46 User is offline   Link64 

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 03:40 PM

View PostDavidXanatos, on 22 February 2012 - 01:53 PM, said:

View PostLink64, on 22 February 2012 - 12:47 PM, said:

Sure, but is that a reason not even to try?

No there is not,
we should definitely try, but we should do it the best way we can, meaning that we would do it freenet style.

I don't see why it should be better than OFFS for simple filesharing, actually as I understand it, entire files are stored on your hard drive, how is that better compared to random data blocks?


Back to your offtopic...

View PostDavidXanatos, on 22 February 2012 - 02:19 PM, said:

The main difference is that you are always at liberty to don't let Facebook, Amazon, Appleget hold of your data, simply don't use the.
You however don't have the liberty in regard to your country its not like you could stop using your country.

I completely agree with that. And than, if I use those services, I actually have something for the data they get from me: free search engine, social network, whatever that might be useful for... and so on. What do I have from the data stored about me by the country? Nothing.



View PostStulle, on 22 February 2012 - 04:18 PM, said:

That apparently the only one who is actually affected by this kind of logging is the ISP who has to pay for the hard- and software to log whatever the government wants them to log.

No. The ISP does not pay for that, we have to pay for that in the end like for all those other stupid ideas coming from Berlin or wherever.
So poste ich richtig! (besonders Punkt 2 beachten)
Für alle, die was heruntergeladen haben und nicht wissen was sie damit anfangen sollen: endun.gen.

BOINC ...and you can always say you're working on a science project.
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#47 User is offline   DavidXanatos 

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 03:46 PM

View PostLink64, on 22 February 2012 - 03:40 PM, said:

I don't see why it should be better than OFFS for simple filesharing, actually as I understand it, entire files are stored on your hard drive, how is that better compared to random data blocks?


Sorry I was unclear,
I mean OFF in Freenet style, so that you store only random blocks but statisticaly always only blocs others might be interested in but not you self.

Also I see an issue in using OFF system in eMule in the OFF style:
Today someone with 100 files must do 100 kad publishments, of himself as source.
With the OFF system he would have to do one publishment for each block of each file, that would be Myriads of kad publishments.
You would increase the KAD load by many thousands.

It would be much better to upload the blocks top KAD peers with sufficiently near Kad ID's and let them keep them for you.

David X.

This post has been edited by DavidXanatos: 22 February 2012 - 03:47 PM

NeoLoader is a new file sharing client, supporting ed2k/eMule, Bittorent and one click hosters,
it is the first client to be able to download form multiple networks the same file.
NL provides the first fully decentralized scalable torrent and DDL keyword search,
it implements an own novel anonymous file sharing network, providing anonymity and deniability to its users,
as well as many other new features.
It is written in C++ with Qt and is available for Windows, Linux and MacOS.
0

#48 User is offline   Stulle 

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 04:10 PM

Ah, crap, i wrote a long reply to your posts... unfortunately I messed up and it got lost... bad luck. The gist:
1. police are not hoodlums
2. house search warrants are not just handed out without any real proof
3. it is disgraceful that anybody who thinks the police is a bunch of hoodlums who operate like US Marines in war time Baghdad could possibly have a say in politics in our society
4. if you live in a disgraceful mess of a home and somebody gets into your flat and you are ashamed of that... well, don't live like a bum
5. landlords have the right to be allowed access to the flat he leased you where he can scrutinize any corner of the flat for damage or whatever while the police are confined to the exact orders on the house search warrant
6. the police or the state in turn can be held accountable for any damage in property or any mental problem you suffer from their actions so there is really not much to worry about because the police have neither interest in harassing you and demolishing your interior, nor would they benefit from it, quite the contrary, actually.
7. Link: the data stored by your country is supposed to protect you from terrorist attacks and a couple of things... well, it doesn't, bad luck, if it did, it would be a reasonable measure. this is what i am saying. if the state thinks this or that measure helps doing the job properly we can't just argue it interferes with my ridiculous sense of need for anonymity because i am afraid my file sharing habits along with that data storage might get me into trouble. counter question, what do i have from having my photo shot when i enter the US? nothing, exactly, yet i do it because i want to go into the US. don't want your IP logged? don't use the internet. as simple as that!
8. Link: okay, so the ISP forwards the costs he has to be pay to us... well, tough luck. ever wondered what tiny fraction of your bill that would be? it's so pathetically small that no ISP suddenly increased their fees once they had to implement the logging. if you are really concerned about who is paying the bill ask yourself how much money gets wasted on far greater BS than measures that supposedly help the polices job. start with the big numbers and then worry about the fractions of cents nobody really cares about.

Lastly, it strikes me as utterly funny how some parts of the internet community think all this is just about copying stuff they would normally have to buy and politicians who have only on concern: pleasing the content industry. Doesn't that show how pathetically small minded they are? Why don't they just try to approach the actual source of their worries, the fear of having to pay the bill for what they did. Make it so that there is no bill to pay. Act in a way that nobody gives a crap about your IP. You wouldn't go around in a store steal and then tell all the staff but refuse to give your name. You wouldn't demolish another persons car on purpose and leave your details behind. Yet these people expect that there should be no way that somebody could hold them accountable for not paying the music he downloaded or demolishing the software on the server they hacked.

EDIT: Hahaha, did anybody actually bother to read the study by the Max-Planck-Institute?

Quote

38. In einem Quick-Freeze-Verfahren wird von den Praktikern über alle Berufsgruppen hinweg kein taugliches Äquivalent zur Vorratsdatenspeicherung gesehen. Dieser Ansicht waren neben den Praktikern aus Deutschland auch die Experten aus Österreich und Schweden. Zur Begründung führen die Befragten, sinngemäß übereinstimmend, an, dass diese Methode lediglich ohnehin vorhandene Verkehrsdaten selektiv vor der Löschung bewahren, gerade die aus ermittlerischer Perspektive besonders wichtigen retrograden Daten aber nicht ex post generieren könne.


This is exactly what i mean above. Selective perception by a great deal of the internet consumers. There are more of these goodies in the original PDF. The media just felt more comfortable just showing one side that seemed more beneficial to the critics. And I am only skimming through right now...

This post has been edited by Stulle: 22 February 2012 - 04:40 PM

I am an emule-web.de member and fan!

[Imagine there was a sarcasm meter right here!]

No, there will not be a new version of my mods. No, I do not want your PM. No, I am certain, use the board and quit sending PMs. No, I am not kidding, there will not be a new version of my mods just because of YOU asking for it!
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#49 User is offline   Link64 

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 04:42 PM

View PostDavidXanatos, on 22 February 2012 - 04:46 PM, said:

I mean OFF in Freenet style, so that you store only random blocks but statisticaly always only blocs others might be interested in but not you self.

:confused: Wouldn't that be pretty much the original OFFS implementation?
Anyway, the details about how it can be implemented are not that important, at least not before some dev show a small sign of interest in implementing something like that in eMule. We know that systems like that work, the main idea of having it in eMule is to take all users and files with to the new network, otherwise we could just start a client for one of the other networks.



View PostStulle, on 22 February 2012 - 05:10 PM, said:

7. Link: the data stored by your country is supposed to protect you from terrorist attacks and a couple of things...

Oh, come on... I understand, that the USA freaked out a little after 9/11, but I really don't get why we are freaking out too.



View PostStulle, on 22 February 2012 - 05:10 PM, said:

8. Link: okay, so the ISP forwards the costs he has to be pay to us... well, tough luck. ever wondered what tiny fraction of your bill that would be? it's so pathetically small that no ISP suddenly increased their fees once they had to implement the logging. if you are really concerned about who is paying the bill ask yourself how much money gets wasted on far greater BS than measures that supposedly help the polices job. start with the big numbers and then worry about the fractions of cents nobody really cares about.

I don't care how little money that is, Cent spend just for to put everyone under general suspicion, is a Cent to much. And as I said, that just one of the stupid ideas we pay for, but the other ones are at least not always directed against us like this one.
So poste ich richtig! (besonders Punkt 2 beachten)
Für alle, die was heruntergeladen haben und nicht wissen was sie damit anfangen sollen: endun.gen.

BOINC ...and you can always say you're working on a science project.
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#50 User is offline   Stulle 

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 04:56 PM

I am not saying I am getting freaked out. I am saying:

Quote

if the state thinks this or that measure helps doing the job properly we can't just argue it interferes with my ridiculous sense of need for anonymity because i am afraid my file sharing habits along with that data storage might get me into trouble.


The whole notion of being under all enclosing scrutiny and suspicion is a very popular one in this context but it is utterly wrong, too. Storing data does not equal suspicion. Or does Facebook think you are up to something bad so it keeps your chat log till the end of days? We have pretty strict laws on data security and how long anything can be stored. The EU guideline is merely changing this. Get this excerpt from the study:

Quote

41. Der internationale Vergleich lässt (bei vergleichbarer Einschätzung des Nutzens von Verkehrsdaten) Unterschiede in der rechtspolitischen Haltung zur Vorratsdatenspeicherung erkennen. Insbesondere in den USA, Kanada, Australien und Neuseeland sind über vereinzelte und sachlich begrenzte Initiativen hinaus keine Ansätze zur Einführung einer umfassenden Vorratsdatenspeicherung festzustellen. Dies wird zumindest für die USA auch dadurch erklärt, dass Telekommunikationsunternehmen wegen fehlender datenschutzrechtlicher Restriktionen in weitem Umfang Verkehrsdaten speichern, auf die Strafverfolgungsbehörden zugreifen können. Diese deutlich anderen Rahmenbedingungen sind bei der Bewertung des möglichen Potenzials des Quick-Freeze-Verfahrens unbedingt zu berücksichtigen.

So apparently they allow the companies to just do whatever they please with the data and they store it even longer than companies do in the EU... hmmmm.... and it goes on:

Quote

25. Die Erreichbarkeit von Verkehrsdaten hängt damit maßgeblich von dem Speicherverhalten und der Auskunftsbereitschaft der jeweiligen TK-Unternehmen ab. Manche Experten haben die Vermutung geäußert, dass sich Täter, die ein gewisses Verständnis für Fragen der Telekommunikationstechnik haben, die unterschiedlichen Speicherpraktiken zu Nutze machen und sich systematisch unverletzlich machen könnten. Die Aufklärungswahrscheinlichkeit kann damit nicht nur zufallsabhängig sein – nämlich von der Frage, bei welchem Telekommunikationsanbieter und unter welchem Gebührenmodell ein Verdächtiger seine Kommunikation abwickelt –, sondern auch anfällig für Manipulation durch die potenziellen Zielpersonen selbst.

So it would appear German ISPs really don't want to save the data anymore than they are allowed, if that long at all, to which hinders the job ob the police. Actually, they don't even want to provide the data, i.e. hindering the police work:

Quote

22.2. Besonders gravierend wirkt sich speziell bei internetbezogenen Recherchen bzw. Auskunftsbegehren der Umstand aus, dass sich TK-Unternehmen auf der Grundlage der aktuellen Fassung des § 113 TKG offenbar regelmäßig weigern, IP-Adressen nach den Bestandsdaten aufzulösen. Damit bleiben zahlreiche Fälle aus dem Bereich der IuKKriminalität derzeit offensichtlich unaufklärbar. Dies kann insbesondere auch Ermittlungen in dem Bereich Kinderpornographie tangieren.

What I am getting at is that apparently there might be some need to enforce that some data is stored at all without suspecting anyone in particular.

Also, from the few paragraphs I read in the study I think it is more likely that their conclusions were along the lines of "we don't know" rather than "it does not help at all".

This post has been edited by Stulle: 22 February 2012 - 04:58 PM

I am an emule-web.de member and fan!

[Imagine there was a sarcasm meter right here!]

No, there will not be a new version of my mods. No, I do not want your PM. No, I am certain, use the board and quit sending PMs. No, I am not kidding, there will not be a new version of my mods just because of YOU asking for it!
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#51 User is offline   DavidXanatos 

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 05:17 PM

Quote

1. police are not hoodlums

yes thay are s21

View PostStulle, on 22 February 2012 - 04:56 PM, said:

2. house search warrants are not just handed out without any real proof

Stulle!
We are talking about the case where teh judge already hended aout warents to search all homes in an entire block.
And the question is if you still would think that is ok, and if not. Why dont you apply the same logic on IP logging?

Quote

4. if you live in a disgraceful mess of a home and somebody gets into your flat and you are ashamed of that... well, don't live like a bum

What about sextoys in a bedroom drawer, throw them away? wouldnt that me a limitation on personal rights.

Quote

5. landlords have the right to be allowed access to the flat he leased you where he can scrutinize any corner of the flat for damage or whatever while the police are confined to the exact orders on the house search warrant

Buy a home, never live in a rentet flat, i never did, and i belive i couldnt, without the liberty to make wholes in wals and modify my electrical system i think i would go mad.

Quote

You wouldn't demolish another persons car on purpose and leave your details behind.

And in all probability you wouldnt got cot, but share one of his MP3's and you are screwd for live.

The internet should be at elast as anonymuse as the real live.

Quote

What I am getting at is that apparently there might be some need to enforce that some data is stored at all without suspecting anyone in particular.

So what about storrign the DNA data of a mass DNA test?
Why not, it doe snot harm you you say and it will help to catch rapists in future.



Assume the government would make such a law, for your new pass you need to leave your DNA in a central database.
All that to catch bad bad rapists.
Would you be ok with that?

And if not, than how is that different form storing your IP by the State or your ISP?


My simple point is the same as with the mass house search.
Eider you say everything the state says including mass DNA tests and mass house search is OK if the state says so.
Or sou say that in this cases you screw the state and try to fight it or leave the country.
if the lather than it is really only a very minor Mather if the state going to far is set at "mass house search" or at "mass IP logging"
It is really as simple as that.


David X.

This post has been edited by DavidXanatos: 22 February 2012 - 05:18 PM

NeoLoader is a new file sharing client, supporting ed2k/eMule, Bittorent and one click hosters,
it is the first client to be able to download form multiple networks the same file.
NL provides the first fully decentralized scalable torrent and DDL keyword search,
it implements an own novel anonymous file sharing network, providing anonymity and deniability to its users,
as well as many other new features.
It is written in C++ with Qt and is available for Windows, Linux and MacOS.
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#52 User is offline   Stulle 

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 05:46 PM

View PostDavidXanatos, on 22 February 2012 - 05:17 PM, said:

yes thay are s21

That is actually a personal insult because a good friend of mine works there as a police officer on a regular basis and he is not a hoodlum. Besides, nobody forced any of the people to be there. You have no idea what happens and what is portrayed in the media. Go and insult the people who burn property of the DB AG and still protest something that has been acknowledged by a majority of the people in that state!

View PostDavidXanatos, on 22 February 2012 - 05:17 PM, said:

Stulle!
We are talking about the case where teh judge already hended aout warents to search all homes in an entire block.
And the question is if you still would think that is ok, and if not. Why dont you apply the same logic on IP logging?

No, you are. I already said that I think it is highly unlikely you will even find a judge who is willing to give you such warrants. And yes, if some judge did I would acknowledge it because that is also part of being a responsible citizen: not fighting the state!

View PostDavidXanatos, on 22 February 2012 - 05:17 PM, said:

What about sextoys in a bedroom drawer, throw them away? wouldnt that me a limitation on personal rights.

Don't live like a bum. If you are ashamed of them put them away. If you are not, you won't be ashamed of having them out in the open when the police comes to your house. I for one don't let stuff that is embarrassing to me lie around in my flat.

View PostDavidXanatos, on 22 February 2012 - 05:17 PM, said:

Buy a home, never live in a rentet flat, i never did, and i belive i couldnt, without the liberty to make wholes in wals and modify my electrical system i think i would go mad.

Well, lucky for you. I am living in a rented flat like a considerably large percentage of the people but I used to live in my parents house. Either is fine for me. My point was a different one. My point was that there are already exceptions where your home is not as sacred as you would want it to be.

View PostDavidXanatos, on 22 February 2012 - 05:17 PM, said:

And in all probability you wouldnt got cot, but share one of his MP3's and you are screwd for live.

The internet should be at elast as anonymuse as the real live.

Again? Seriously? Can you actually come up with something new? Change the bloody protocol. It's not the states fault or the ISPs fault that you need to leave an IP with the other party you communicate with. And yes, you would get caught if you left your details. That was the whole point of my analogy. You leave your bloody IP behind and you have to be aware of that before you do anything foolish. Don't change how things work, change what can happen to you because of it! That is my whole idea I am trying to get across to you? Do you even understand me? Should I paraphrase things more? Just tell me...

View PostDavidXanatos, on 22 February 2012 - 05:17 PM, said:

So what about storrign the DNA data of a mass DNA test?
Why not, it doe snot harm you you say and it will help to catch rapists in future.

Again, there is no need to leave DNA when talking to people. The internet works differently and if the possibility exists and it can help to solve crimes it should be used.
Stop mocking me like the fool you seem to be. The internet is a tool and as such it is exploited and we are talking about countermeasures of such exploit. Nobody is asking you to use it. If you use it be aware of the consequences it has. Your IP will be logged. Period. I told you before, the internet is not your playground and your actions in the internet will have consequences if they were wrong. This is entirely different from having a DNA sample from anyone person on this planet because they are a lot less anonymous when they stand before you and give you shit then they are in the internet. This is exactly why the internet is mistaken for a playground and you want it to be anonymous. So you and the-likes of you can keep on toying with the powerful when you have no power whatsoever.


View PostDavidXanatos, on 22 February 2012 - 05:17 PM, said:

Assume the government would make such a law, for your new pass you need to leave your DNA in a central database.
All that to catch bad bad rapists.
Would you be ok with that?

I would be okay with a mass DNA test which has already been performed numerous times in Germany. After that test the DNA samples and information was deleted. Just the same with any logged data. You are blowing things immensely out of proportion with that example. The DNA is your body. Your IP is just a number. Your name is just some letters. Bringing them together identifies a persona. DNA identifies a being. So comparing these two in the way you so desperately try to is not even close to appropriate. Besides, the information of IP and persona is not even brought together until somebody asks for it which is also another aspect of data security.

View PostDavidXanatos, on 22 February 2012 - 05:17 PM, said:

And if not, than how is that different form storing your IP by the State or your ISP?

See above.


View PostDavidXanatos, on 22 February 2012 - 05:17 PM, said:

My simple point is the same as with the mass house search.
Eider you say everything the state says including mass DNA tests and mass house search is OK if the state says so.
Or sou say that in this cases you screw the state and try to fight it or leave the country.
if the lather than it is really only a very minor Mather if the state going to far is set at "mass house search" or at "mass IP logging"
It is really as simple as that.

See, black and white. I am not saying everything is okay or everything is not okay. I say proportions and balance is important. Something you utterly lack. I am even starting to think you are incapable to make a morally sound judgment on this matter because you are too blinded by your ridiculous thrive for anonymity out of lower urges. The urges to do unlawful things without facing consequences. The problem is not that laws are enforced. The problem is that some laws are utter crap. And instead of actually fighting the people who make these laws and who benefit from them you put your mind to just one thing. Fighting the people who have to enforce them and their means in trying to do so. That is just as unjust as suing the shit out of "petty thieves".

Get some proportions in your world view already. And get the picture of your real enemies straight. Everything else makes you just the laughing stock of those who have the power to give you another wind mill once you tore down the last one. The problem is not the police, the judicature and their measures, the problem is the legislative which allows laws to be passed that are unjust and benefit only the content industry.

This post has been edited by Stulle: 22 February 2012 - 05:47 PM

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#53 User is offline   DavidXanatos 

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 06:04 PM

View PostStulle, on 22 February 2012 - 05:46 PM, said:

No, you are. I already said that I think it is highly unlikely you will even find a judge who is willing to give you such warrants. And yes, if some judge did I would acknowledge it because that is also part of being a responsible citizen: not fighting the state!


So where would you drew the line to what you would accept a judge allowing the police to do.
From pure curiosity what would it be?

Quote

I for one don't let stuff that is embarrassing to me lie around in my flat.

Guess what, they will probably open your drawers, so you would have to throw it away entirely.

Quote

It's not the states fault or the ISPs fault that you need to leave an IP with the other party you communicate with.

It is very much the states fault of he forces my ISP to log my IP.

Quote

Your IP will be logged. Period.

Actually it wont, as I'm using VPN's that have been proven to not log, they ware some documented incidents where the police took their servers to no result.


Quote

This is entirely different from having a DNA sample from anyone person on this planet because they are a lot less anonymous when they stand before you and give you shit then they are in the internet.

As i wrote thats plain wrong, there is no justification why the Internet should be made by laws to log IPs artificial less anonymous than the real world.
A purp staying in front of you can do you immensely more harm than if he only communicates with you over the Internet.


Quote

See, black and white. I am not saying everything is okay or everything is not okay. I say proportions and balance is important.


And I'm simply asking if there is a thing a judge might order and you would not be ok with it (assuming there is such a thing) how it is different form me not being ok with IP logging?

We would be booth "fighting the state" just for other causes.
So so coming back to my initial question what would be in or opinion a judges decision that would be not longer proportions and balanced?

Is there such hypothetical situation?
GPS for all cars?
DNA testing and retaining the data indefinitely of all mails in Berlin?
Cameras in every flat?

What would it need for you, for a judge to grant to make you "fighting the state"?
Is there even such thing or would you accept anything the state decides?

David X.
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NL provides the first fully decentralized scalable torrent and DDL keyword search,
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#54 User is offline   Stulle 

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 06:51 PM

Blub. :flowers:
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#55 User is offline   fox88 

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 07:55 PM

View PostLink64, on 22 February 2012 - 03:47 PM, said:

No, it's not

Predictable answer,...

View PostLink64, on 22 February 2012 - 03:47 PM, said:

hence the request to add it or similar functionality

... but you completely missed the point. And the point is: available resources for copyright enforcement are limited and therefore would be used against major offenders. Minor issues like OFF or VPN are mostly ignored.

View PostLink64, on 22 February 2012 - 03:47 PM, said:

if someone can get a file over classical P2P or OCH, he'll currently probably go with OCH and that not just because of the speed.

Why choose P2P, if with OCH you win on both speed and security. Where's the catch?
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#56 User is offline   Link64 

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 08:26 PM

View PostStulle, on 22 February 2012 - 05:56 PM, said:

Quote

41. Der internationale Vergleich (...)

So apparently they allow the companies to just do whatever they please with the data and they store it even longer than companies do in the EU...

That's not our problem, if the people in US want to have data protection standards as in Europe, they have to do something about it themselves. I don't see also any reason to look at countries, which are worse in some regards than us and say "look how good we have here", better look at countries who are better than us and try to get there as well. Even if there are no countries better than us, that still doesn't mean nothing can be improved.



View PostStulle, on 22 February 2012 - 05:56 PM, said:

So it would appear German ISPs really don't want to save the data anymore than they are allowed, if that long at all, to which hinders the job ob the police. Actually, they don't even want to provide the data, i.e. hindering the police work

That does not add up with the 220,000 warnings send out by lawyers to P2P users in 2011. Basically all people using P2P software have unlimited broadband access, with that there is no need to save anything for the invoice, so if they were saving just what they need, i.e. nothing, there would be exactly 0 warnings send out. And yes, according to the law they are only allowed to save as much as they really need for the invoice, Telekom was even once sued for that. For telephone numbers you could have before as far as I remember the last 3 digits replaced by XXX, that could be done for IPs as well and should be enough in cases where it's needed for the invoice (since is enough for telephone numbers).



View PostStulle, on 22 February 2012 - 05:56 PM, said:

What I am getting at is that apparently there might be some need to enforce that some data is stored at all without suspecting anyone in particular.

If you don't suspect anyone, why would you like to track which IPs he is using or where he's going with his mobile phone?



View PostStulle, on 22 February 2012 - 05:56 PM, said:

Also, from the few paragraphs I read in the study I think it is more likely that their conclusions were along the lines of "we don't know" rather than "it does not help at all".

Sure, there are some small uncertainties, but that's the nature of statistics and of course they cannot know if it could have help to stop some planes from flying into buildings, when nothing like that happend or was discovered before it happend. For the other often used argument, child pornography, it's pretty clearly stated, that it didn't change anything, you can see it on the graph as well.
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#57 User is offline   Link64 

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 08:39 PM

View Postfox88, on 22 February 2012 - 08:55 PM, said:

View PostLink64, on 22 February 2012 - 03:47 PM, said:

hence the request to add it or similar functionality

... but you completely missed the point. And the point is: available resources for copyright enforcement are limited and therefore would be used against major offenders. Minor issues like OFF or VPN are mostly ignored.

Are they ignored, because they are not used that much or simply because it's quite impossible to get the data of anyone there?



View PostLink64, on 22 February 2012 - 03:47 PM, said:

Why choose P2P, if with OCH you win on both speed and security. Where's the catch?

With currently RS giving 30KB/s to free users I doubt you get both. Sure there are better ones, but without mirrors on at least two OCHs even eMule can be faster, if there are over 100 sources for a file (I specially like those LowID clients, which basically upload the entire file without interruption at good speed :D).

This post has been edited by Link64: 22 February 2012 - 08:41 PM

So poste ich richtig! (besonders Punkt 2 beachten)
Für alle, die was heruntergeladen haben und nicht wissen was sie damit anfangen sollen: endun.gen.

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#58 User is offline   Stulle 

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 08:44 PM

Okay, you got me. I was utterly wrong. We obviously need no kind of IP logging, no kind of video surveillance in metro stations and most certainly no mass DNA tests. Ever! None of these measures have ever been proved to be successful. Especially not the video surveillance in Berlins "S-Bahn" stations. I am sorry for being mislead by... the media? The RIAA? Whoever it was should be punished. Severely, although anonymously. :worthy:

This post has been edited by Stulle: 22 February 2012 - 08:45 PM

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#59 User is offline   Link64 

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 09:23 PM

Don't try to compare video surveillance of few public places with IP logging or tracking the path of every person, who has a cell phone. Better compare it to video surveillance of your home if you really need to.
So poste ich richtig! (besonders Punkt 2 beachten)
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#60 User is offline   fox88 

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 09:40 PM

View PostLink64, on 22 February 2012 - 11:39 PM, said:

Are they ignored, because they are not used that much or simply because it's quite impossible to get the data of anyone there?

I think you missed the 'limited resourses' part. Wasting dollars to get a dime is not what those guys are after.

View PostLink64, on 22 February 2012 - 11:39 PM, said:

With currently RS giving 30KB/s to free users I doubt you get both.

That is what you wrote: 'he'll currently probably go with OCH and that not just because of the speed'. The last part quite clearly tells that there is no doubt on the subject of good speed.
On the other hand, there is no numerical comparison of P2P and OCH speeds neither in my nor in your posts. Making calculations now means you want to deny your own initial statement, does it not? :P

This post has been edited by fox88: 22 February 2012 - 10:18 PM

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