[fabtar]

I read few italian p2p newsgroups and I have sometimes faced guys with different opinions about Emule usage.
They split community in three clusters:
A)There is a cluster of users which suggest to disable servers and use only Kademlia based on these assertions:
- Servers are not safe (I think for privacy or search pollution)
- list of servers doesn't provide secuirty.
- Servers don't add any valuable search improvement over Kademlia.
- With Kad-only , you need an updated nodes.dat to boot which is a simpler operation than configure servers properly.

B)There is a cluster of users which suggest to keep using both servers and Kademlia based on these assertions:
- Servers aren't a privacy issue.
- Good Serverlist include servers which behaves fine(no search pollution)
- Servers,being centralized, reduces network overhead limiting searches on distribuited Kad.
- Using both Servers and Kad, you obtain redundancy of search engines.
(a failure on one search tool, Kad or Servers, doesn't stop network or client to work properly)
- Servers are quick and have more search options than Kad.


C) Cluster of users which suggest to use Servers only. (I have added this for completeness)

I like to ask modders and developers (and other sage community members) for their opinion about.
Have I to support A or B , C cluster? What about advantages and drawbacks?
Hypotesis:
the user is free to choice between all chaces.
My poll has the purpose to ask opinions about the best configuration to suggest (for the benefit of the network as a whole and for the user both).

Personally I have an opinion about but I like to hear your untrammeled opinions in order to provide the best tips to the community.
Regards

This post has been edited by fabtar: 06 April 2008 - 05:40 PM

[niclights]

I believe it is always best to connect to both if you can. This will benefit both the network as a whole as well as user (for rare files mostly).


My reasons in no specific order:


The security concerns regarding servers are not necessarily justified IMO. Yes your published shared files list could persuade further investigation (ie attempt to upload particular files) but in itself it is not evidence. The real security risk always comes from downloading, and therefore uploading, copyright material.

Server searches have significant restrictions and therefore Kad does tend to be better. But for rare files it is possible there are no users connected to both networks. In these cases it will be necessary to search both and connect to the relevant one in order to find sources.

Nodes are initially found via ed2k. Without server connection you would have to know where to get a nodes.dat file.

Not everyone can use Kad, especially not without firewall. Mostly this will be due to router problems handling UDP packets.

For source exchange to work between networks relies on as many users as possible connecting to both. This will ensure those who can/do only connect to one can still acquire sources from both.

I don't think redundancy is correct regarding searching. Both are independent and do not share sources. As a whole they provide a more accurate picture but one or the other simply show what is published on the respective network. Perhaps for source acquisition, yes.

[fabtar]

niclights, on Apr 4 2008, 01:39 AM, said:

I believe it is always best to connect to both if you can. This will benefit both the network as a whole as well as user (for rare

Thanks for replying, wait for others to give their opinion.
Perhaps have I had to create a poll?

[xscarab]

I rarely use Kad. I tend to dl very well sourced, or very rare files. I don't often find extra sources from Kad for the rare files, and the servers/SX find me more than enough for the very well sourced ones. Therefore Kad is a waste of overhead for me.

Also, I object to the file that's left in my emule folder after connecting, which almost always has loads of references to child-porn files. I'm not entirely sure what the purpose of that file is, but I really don't want to be a "node" that helps the pervs find that crap (if that file is accessed when peeps are looking on Kad for that stuff or for sources for it).

While we still have trusted and working servers, I'll stick with servers-only for now.

[torpon]

You forget the third category in pool likely more used than Kad only:
Let's use servers only

Cheers

[niclights]

Quote

While we still have trusted and working servers, I'll stick with servers-only for now.

But don't forget that the only reason SX works is because other users do connect to both, that being the way it benefits the community.

[xscarab]

But surely SX worked BEFORE we had Kad? lol (@ niclights - actually I meant SX of other sources on servers which the server didn't give me - not users on Kad only - but I know what you mean - see the end of this post )

But what it comes down to, is we have a choice. If the servers go belly up, Kad can be used. If your router doesn't like Kad, or lack of obfuscation is a problem with it and your ISP, you can use a server. If you prefer one over the other, or don't feel comfortable/secure with one of them, you can choose to not use, or touse, respectively, the other network.

As long as the 2 networks don't diverge too much (e.g. an increasing number of users connecting to Kad or ed2k only, and not to both) and stop mule users being able to find each other if they're not connected to the same network it's good to have both available.

[niclights]

Yes, you're absolutely right. SX works for just server based but I was considering inter-network since that was the topic. My point is, if you have no objections or technical reasons against, it is better for the network to connect to both. This improves the source diversity especially when files are particularly rare.

[Dick_Manitoba]

First of all, you don't offer a response of "Server only" in your poll. Let's remember, there are some where this is the only option to them.

What you choose to use is purely psychological. I see no evidence that KAD is any more or less secure than a genuine, properly functioning server, and so, I recommend both to people.

There is some truth to the point made about ED2K servers being potentially harmful to those who share files they should not share given that the server within minutes is aware of all a client shares. But given time on the KAD network, your client would surrender just as much information to many more clients than it would if connected to a server. It won't share the data in the same manner, or all with a single client, but that is small comfort when it shares with so many more, all of whom aren't any more "verifiable" than the servers.

Anyone suggesting that "KAD is more secure", and implying that there is "less chance you will get caught" (sharing files you should not share), in my opinion, is fooling himself, and others. With so many anti-P2P IPs and IP ranges appearing in block lists, it stands to reason they are familiar with KAD, and more than we know.

On the other hand, if you load up server lists from anywhere and everywhere, well, that's a game of roulette I don't recommend.

This post has been edited by Dick_Manitoba: 04 April 2008 - 07:00 PM

[fabtar]

Dick_Manitoba, on Apr 4 2008, 06:58 PM, said:

First of all, you don't offer a response of "Server only" in your poll.

I'm sorry for this lack. In newsgroup I have faced Kad-only or server+Kad sustainers.
I have noted that guys using servers often agree connecting to kad too.
I have the impression that servers-only's guys are people of the "B" category with connection problems which doesn't permit kad to work properly.I have not encountered emule users which suggest to use only servers first.

I 'll change the poll entries.I hope this'll not waste the poll result.

This post has been edited by fabtar: 05 April 2008 - 11:28 AM

[coluche]

I use both for the reason that my router does not mind tooo much Kademlia traffic, so why not ?
I am highID/open and I really like the idea to help a firewalled someone (Kademlia Buddy).

I would not want to miss neither Server (global) search with all it's neat extra functions nor Kademlia search for the no-100-sources-limit.

[xscarab]

What vote exactly do you want us to make? What we use, or what we think is best for the emule community? You have both in your title/introduction. What I use, isn't actually what I think is best when 2 networks are available.

As I've already inferred, I use server-only most of the time, but I think it's vitally important and therefore best, that most peeps connect to both to stop exclusive users of one network becoming "separated" from those who exclusively use the other network.

I'll vote when you clarify that. Cheers!

[leuk_he]

Opinion!!!! not truth....

fabtar, on Apr 3 2008, 09:29 AM, said:

A)There is a cluster of users which suggest to disable servers and use only Kademlia based on these assertions:
- Servers are not safe (I think for privacy or search pollution)

Too vague to answer. p2p is not very safe in general.

Quote

- list of servers doesn't provide secuirty.

Security against what? the whole point of kad & servers is that the files you share can be found

Quote

- Servers don't add any valuable search improvement over Kademlia.

DId you try? not all kind of data can be gotten from kad (releated search to name one)

Quote

- With Kad-only , you need an updated nodes.dat to boot which is a simpler operation than configure servers properly.

In official it it no easy to locate a good & safe nodes.date and save it (VISTA) under the correct dir.

Quote

B)There is a cluster of users which suggest to keep using both servers and Kademlia based on these assertions:
.... repeat...
- Servers,being centralized, reduces network overhead limiting searches on distribuited Kad.

Search for sources is done on kad & servers anyway, but overhead on kad can be quite big!

Quote

- Using both Servers and Kad, you obtain redundancy of search engines.
(a failure on one search tool, Kad or Servers, doesn't stop network or client to work properly)

right

Quote

- Servers are quick and have more search options than Kad.

Quick, but servers are sometime unreliable because overloaded


Note the following points:
-If you have a good server list your searches are faster.
-Other NON EMULE CLIENTS mostly cannot use kad. You are can be loosing out on those sources if you disable servers. You might find them via SX but that can fail in rare files.
-YOu see more clients (espeically if you are a lowid!!!!!) if you use kad & servers.

BUT:
Kad has more overhead, and blows up some routers. (well, overloads them to require a reboot, but blow up sounds better)

your Server list can get polluted leaving a extra breach of your shared files to anti-p2p organisations.

KAD & good servers can get polluted too. Don't forget that.

[fabtar]

xscarab, on Apr 5 2008, 01:33 PM, said:

What vote exactly do you want us to make? What we use, or what we think is best for the emule community? You have both in your title/introduction. What I use, isn't actually what I think is best when 2 networks are available.

I have thought about what is the best for emule community/network/users.
I have thought that (if no tecnical issues arises) the "What we use, or what [i]we think is best" is the same, this is the reason of my erroneous topic.
I have also specified in the first post that my problem is: "What are the best settings to suggest to a emule's user?"

[coluche]

Quote

I have also specified in the first post that my problem is: "What are the best settings to suggest to a emule's user?"

But you are around for so long time - You should know by now that in the very most cases the answer is "That depends" (on your environment - hardware, network access, OS, etc. and on what you want from eMule)

But I myself would go along the line of (provided all other settings are 'good')

connect to both unless :

- You are paranoid AND like to believe myths, however untrue they are -> Kad only and go away
- You need obfuscation -> servers only (not really sure on this, Kad TCP get's obfuscated, Kad UDP not, so Kad is not really useful then ? maybe this problem is obsolete next month anyway ? )
- dial-up with analogue modem or WiFi access with very low UL/DL capacity or low simultaneous connections
allowed -> servers only
- Router/modem has problems with all the UDP -> servers only (do a check first for your Kademlia load, if it's very high, you may consider getting a new Kad identity instead)

This post has been edited by coluche: 06 April 2008 - 10:55 AM

[fabtar]

coluche, on Apr 6 2008, 11:54 AM, said:

But you are around for so long time - You should know by now that in the very most cases the answer is "That depends" (on your environment - hardware, network access, OS, etc. and on what you want from eMule)

Yes, I perfectly know that the choice depends on hardware or network enviroment.
Starting from the assumption there is no network limitation for the user(the user is free to choice between all chaces), my poll has the purpose to ask opinions about the best configuration to suggest (for the benefit of the network as a whole and for the user both).
I have wrote and related here all the assumtions I have heard around for A.B.C without altering them with my opinions.
I have an opinion but I like to heard the opinion of developers and forum's power users.
regards

[Analog-X]

I have always used e-mule for old files that you cant find anywhere anymore...

Recently I've only been able to use the Kad Servers... I've been very busy with work etc.. so I havent had the time to scour the net for new server lists.

Any suggestions where I can get the latest and somewhat safe server lists?? I used to always use the eDonky servers, but even those seem to have dissapeared.

[torpon]

IMHO suggest a setting without assuming hardware or software limitations is a bad advice.

Cheers

@Analog-X
How To Get A Reliable Server List & A Good Ipfilter
If you need more help open your own topic.

This post has been edited by torpon: 06 April 2008 - 06:12 PM

[fabtar]

torpon, on Apr 6 2008, 07:10 PM, said:

IMHO suggest a setting without assuming hardware or software limitations is a bad advice.

My poor english is a big problem
I try to explain simpler all the poll in a single question:

What is the best choice A,B,C for a user who has not hardware limitations?

I have assumed that the guy who asks for support can freely chose between A,B,C only based on a performance-secuity-"best for the network" point of view.
I know too guys who have to use servers only cause too much UDP traffic freeze their router.
Regards

[leuk_he]

fabtar, on Apr 6 2008, 08:27 PM, said:

What is the best choice A,B,C for a user who has not hardware limitations?

Use servers + kad.

-watch serverlist for fake servers (an ipfilter might help, but ipfilters shoule NOT NOT be blindly recommended)
-keep an eyon on kad for still fucntioning.

KAD+servers gives maximum numbers of reachable users.

NOTE: highid is far more important