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Wmv Drm Protected Files Sharing what to do with them and with users sharing them?

#1 User is offline   trodas 

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Post icon  Posted 16 April 2007 - 11:36 AM

Some years ago Microsoft introduced in their WMV - Windows Media Video format (sometimes only WM...) the support aimed to restrict playback of the WMV file contents to viewers that payed for it with technology called DRM - Digital Rights Media.

First it was a laughable idea (it also restrict playback to usualy latest Microsoft Media Player and Windows too, so, who on Earth would want go this way?!), yet when I purchased years ago the (at the time new release) Terminator 2 Extreme DVD edition from Artiscan, I got in trouble playing the WMV HI-DEFINITION content there.

First at all, I was a lagal buyer, but it just won't play there, in Europe. So, I have to use American proxy to get the "approval" each time I want to look on what I bought. This was at least not yet restricted to Microsoft Media Player...

Todays the situation is much worser and I learned my lesson well - I never ever ever buy anything DRM protected - ever. It is so problematic, that I rather download DRM-free versions of the news/emule/torrents rather that support guys and firms that create such obstacles for customer to play content he bought...


End of whinning, let's fast-forward to the today situation.
Perform eMule search for any word that could give you a reasonably small movies to download rather quickly. I used recently word "whip". (okay, perverted choice, but don't worry, you don't see anything bad... trust me) I started download of first 10 most shared wmv movies up to 20MB size that pop-up in the search on top, sorded by availability. With extreme speed I get downloaded most of these smaller wmv files and quess what!
Only one of ten is possible to play.
All others are DRM protected.

The big question.
It is sharing a wmv drm protected files okay in P2P network? I mean - others can't play this file, so - could it be considered as FAKE file...?

Any other ideas how to battle files that others can't open? (there are Mac users on eMule too, as well, as Win2000 users that does NOT wish to has a DRM capable Microsoft Media Player in their computers in the very first place... not to mention the need of the keys, that is lacking there...)

Bottom line.
If user has the key, he can strip the file off the DRM protection shell with Fair Use proggy rather easily. ( http://forum.doom9.o...ad.php?t=114916 ) Hence it again poping the big question - it is okay to share the WMV files that are DRM protected?

My opinion is no, it is NOT okay and sharing of these files should result in one form of punishment or another, because that is the only way to get rid of these unplayable files, I think. Of course that is just my opinion and I starting this thread to open a wide discussion about this subject. Let's hear your thoughts, guys and gals (if any) :flowers:
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#2 User is offline   leuk_he 

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Posted 16 April 2007 - 11:53 AM

First you should be aware that those wmv you downloaded are the p2p equivalent of (porn) sites that show 2 pictures and then need your credit card for age verification purposes. (yeah right! :angelnot: ). THose people will to anything to spread their "content"to get money. Since some people seem to activate the license, their business model seems working . (else they would stop?).

Second: The moment eMule starts censoring (HOW? ) content, eMule controls the data in the network. Guess who will rush in to declare that their content should nto be on the network? Any kind of censoring or restricting of content will not work for that reason. Just think about the how. One single server that validates content? who to trust? Blacklist in the client? -> it is open source and those spam guys will use a variation that is avoiding the blacklist.

Question back:

Should people be allowed to share achives that have a password on it?
(rar)

This post has been edited by leuk_he: 16 April 2007 - 11:55 AM

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#3 User is offline   Dick_Manitoba 

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Posted 16 April 2007 - 01:05 PM

If the devs ever get the idea to remove Windows Media formats from default audio/video search types, I wonder how many will complain ;)

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#4 User is offline   trodas 

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Post icon  Posted 16 April 2007 - 06:05 PM

leuk_he - I have no idea what is inside these files, however they are not playable files, hence they are fake files. Hence maybe something should be done - for example if DRM file is detected, do not share it, mark is at fake - whatever can help there...

Quote

Second: The moment eMule starts censoring (HOW? ) content

That was never ever my idea. Censoring is always bad. But so it is sharing a fake unplayable content. And sometimes eMule servers are telling me that this file is "known fake" or "known incomplete" file and suggesting removing them from shared files, or face losing credits.
Similar thing should be done with and DRM WMV file. It is not only mostly a dangerous scam, it is a way to hurt the network as well. Simplier people that use eMule by my recommendation can't seems to stop asking me about "why they can't play any of these wmv files...". So it is getting on my nerves, lol. I explain, then explain again and week later the same question come up...

Quote

Question back:
Should people be allowed to share achives that have a password on it? (rar)

Same stuff. No. This is not usable file, hence fake file and hence detection should put this file on list of known fakes and everyone sharing it shall remove it or start losing credits.


Dick_Manitoba - sure many will complain and I would be the first. But that was never what I say that should be done. I just saying that the network is somewhat plagued with fake DRM WMV files - and perhaps few pass-protected archives. I did not meet one, yet, but anything could happen...
The problem with these WMV files are, that they seems SO SO SO POPULAR that everyone (almost) must have them. Also they download so so fast, so... they end up in many users harddrives, being shared and lurking for next victim. By definition, they are almost a virus... <_<
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#5 User is offline   EvolutionCrazy 

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Posted 16 April 2007 - 06:09 PM

yeah...

"-wvm" should automatically be added to ANY search :D
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#6 User is offline   Andu 

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Posted 16 April 2007 - 06:14 PM

Too much fallout. I'm against the idea. Leuk pretty much summed it up otherwise.
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#7 User is offline   niclights 

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Posted 16 April 2007 - 06:49 PM

Additionally, the client will detect and warn if a file is DRM protected.

Other than making this slightly more obvious to the user I don't think there is anything else that can or should be done.
Whether something should be shared on the network is not the concern of the client. This, like the whole fake file issue, is not the huge problem some make it out to be.
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#8 User is offline   pablod 

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Post icon  Posted 16 April 2007 - 10:39 PM

Hi :) !

We can say that eMule is a tool for P2P filesharing. Any filesharing. Not some filesharing. Not only free filesharing.
How can we prevent that someone use ed2k or kad to distribute material they sell?

You can either add a comment saying that is DRM protected and continue to share the file for free, helping others with their profit. Or you delete the file, you were cheated, it's not that you were looking for.

P2P is a wild environment were you can find anything. It's no like going to a store, and complaining later if you are dissatisfied.


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#9 User is offline   RejZoR 

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Posted 17 April 2007 - 07:51 AM

Maybe detecting DRM bit and showing it could help. Though i'm not sure if thats possible (like small DRM icon next to DRM protectd files you want to download...
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#10 User is offline   trodas 

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Post icon  Posted 17 April 2007 - 10:15 AM

EvolutionCrazy - LOL :angelnot: :flowers:


Andu - what "fallout" you exactly mean? Please clarify.


niclights - detection of DRM file will help a lot, good idea, thanks! :thumbup:

Quote

I don't think there is anything else that can or should be done.

I think that sharing such files should mean losing credits, as these files are clear fakes, not to mean being dangerous for yours credit card (okay, perhaps not for yours... :) )

Quote

This, like the whole fake file issue, is not the huge problem some make it out to be.

I disagree because I being continuosly bugged with simple minded users that complaining about that "they can't play this file, so why the people share it so much? They MUST be able to play it..." - by their simple logic it is very hard to understand that...
And when the most Available/shared files are such fakes, then it is obvious that this issue is getting bigger that you (or me) would like it to be. You just gotta admit that, that it is <_<


pablod - you are right, but any network that want to live has to live by some rules. It is not okay, when it hurt the network, do you agree?
Anyway thanks to agree at least with the warning icon. It would help a lot. DRM = unplayable will clearly get to the people minds. I think this is an excelent idea, even that I would like this to be pushed harder...


RejZoR - yep, sure it will help. But hey, nothing is impossible. Every DRM file being with:

Posted Image

The "http://www.microsoft...r.dll?prd=wmdrm" text is always present in the header. Detection is easy then. And maybe there are even simplier methods... I'm far from being programmer...
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#11 User is offline   Andu 

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Posted 17 April 2007 - 10:47 AM

View Posttrodas, on Apr 17 2007, 12:15 PM, said:

Andu - what "fallout" you exactly mean? Please clarify.


By removing all DRMed files you also remove the opportunity for new businesses to use the advantages of p2p to distribute content. It's not our decision to make if companies should sell DRM files or not. I personally don't like nor will I bother with DRM but others might not care.
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One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne
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One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them,
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#12 User is offline   niclights 

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Posted 17 April 2007 - 11:50 AM

View PostRejZoR, on Apr 17 2007, 08:51 AM, said:

Maybe detecting DRM bit and showing it could help. Though i'm not sure if thats possible (like small DRM icon next to DRM protectd files you want to download...

View Posttrodas, on Apr 17 2007, 11:15 AM, said:

niclights - detection of DRM file will help a lot, good idea, thanks! :thumbup:
snip
Anyway thanks to agree at least with the warning icon. It would help a lot. DRM = unplayable will clearly get to the people minds. I think this is an excelent idea, even that I would like this to be pushed harder...


Like I said, it already does detect DRM ;)
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#13 User is offline   pablod 

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Post icon  Posted 17 April 2007 - 04:13 PM

View Posttrodas, on Apr 17 2007, 07:15 AM, said:

pablod - you are right, but any network that want to live has to live by some rules. It is not okay, when it hurt the network, do you agree?
Anyway thanks to agree at least with the warning icon. It would help a lot. DRM = unplayable will clearly get to the people minds. I think this is an excelent idea, even that I would like this to be pushed harder...


I totally agree. Some rules are necessary to live together.
But as long as eMule is not intended to restrict almost anything we have to have some courtesy rules, depend on the individuals. It's natural selection. The network will survive as we know it if goodness prevails.


Andu said:

It's not our decision to make if companies should sell DRM files or not.

I agree. But how not to involuntarily lend bandwidth or sources for free? How do we prevent it?


:flowers:

This post has been edited by pablod: 17 April 2007 - 04:15 PM

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#14 User is offline   trodas 

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Post icon  Posted 17 April 2007 - 07:42 PM

Andu - I did not say remove, I just say that sharing such fake files with possibly/likely malicious content shall not be either rewarded by credits or even become punished by losing credits for sharing. Think about it as preventive action to the ed2k network not become polluted with unplayable / fake content too much.
One thing is companies selling, well, anything and another thing is abuse the free P2P distribution where the downloaders became very flustrated by content that they can't open... hence bad news for the network as whole.
All I want to say is, that the situation is already a bit too bad to not do anything about it.


niclights -

Quote

the client will detect and warn if a file is DRM protected

I don't know where to see the warning DRM sign/icon or whatever in eMule 0.47c - you mean that in the upcomming release it will show the DRM label/icon/warning sign/color?
I definitively looking forward to it!

Quote

Like I said, it already does detect DRM

Not for me, sadly. How to make it detect/show that the content is DRM protected? Wait for new version?


pablod - exactly my point. No-one want any restriction or control about shared data. But everyone want download file that they can open. If they can't, it shall be labeled as fake and users requested to remove it...
Identification is a good start. Great in fact. Another problem lies in the search. These 309 results I got are mostly plagued with these fake files, hence the search is becomming... problematic...
And the bandwitch - well, this is out fault, actually. We shall not share these fake files... stupid users do. If they get messages from servers to stop sharing these files because they give no credit (or even better slowly lose credits for sharing fake files!), the problem will go away very quickly. In just few weeks will be DRM fake file very rare to find on ed2k network... I think :)
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#15 User is offline   pablod 

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Post icon  Posted 17 April 2007 - 08:26 PM

View Posttrodas, on Apr 17 2007, 04:42 PM, said:

pablod - exactly my point. No-one want any restriction or control about shared data. But everyone want download file that they can open. If they can't, it shall be labeled as fake and users requested to remove it...
Identification is a good start. Great in fact. Another problem lies in the search. These 309 results I got are mostly plagued with these fake files, hence the search is becomming... problematic...
And the bandwitch - well, this is out fault, actually. We shall not share these fake files... stupid users do. If they get messages from servers to stop sharing these files because they give no credit (or even better slowly lose credits for sharing fake files!), the problem will go away very quickly. In just few weeks will be DRM fake file very rare to find on ed2k network... I think :)


What I said about natural selection. If most users behave correctly then the bad behaving users will be in minority and finally desappearing.
Right now I'm struggling with a file (not DRM protected) wich has many different fakes and hundreds of sources, and I just keep looking for the real version. If all those sources just realise that it is a fake and comment it or erase the file... but I found no more than a dozen of comments that alerted me.
The power of one is to make something.

Changing the subject, ed2k and kad are like the http: there are people that uses it fairly, gives things for free... and are those that uses it to sell things. And are those with malicious intentions. But there is freedom. A distorted citation of Voltaire: "I disagree with what you say but I'd lay down my life for your freedom to say it"

Good luck :flowers:

This post has been edited by pablod: 17 April 2007 - 08:32 PM

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#16 User is offline   niclights 

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Posted 18 April 2007 - 01:13 AM

Quote

I don't know where to see the warning DRM sign/icon or whatever in eMule 0.47c


Right-click file/details/content. The client will warn you here if it thinks the file is DRM protected or if the file header does not match file extension (0.47b on). As of 0.47c it will also show available index information for archives (including files complete and previewable in black/not complete greyed).

Admittedly this is not so obvious and I did suggest long ago that a warning icon be placed more prominently similar to a comment/rating, but since any responsible user will always be looking in details to check shared filenames as a matter of course it's not so bad.

If a user is not looking at a files details then they've only got themselves to blame for not bothering to read the manual. I still maintain that there is no big problem with fakes so long as you take due care and use common sense.
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#17 User is offline   trodas 

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Post icon  Posted 20 April 2007 - 10:56 AM

pablod - unfortunately most users need a little motivation to behave correctly, seems... :ranting:

Quote

Right now I'm struggling with a file (not DRM protected) wich has many different fakes and hundreds of sources, and I just keep looking for the real version. If all those sources just realise that it is a fake and comment it or erase the file... but I found no more than a dozen of comments that alerted me.
The power of one is to make something.

True enought. Good luck!

And I believe Voltaire said "I disagree with what you say but I will always fight for your right to say it" - it is the same stuff, in fact. And yes, I agree. But some warning icon should be there and the detection should work...


niclights -

Quote

Right-click file/details/content.

No DRM info there, not to mention user should know BEFORE starting download that this IS a fake DRM file! After download is added, he just become another source of malicious content to be spread = very very very bad.
At least no drm info for file that was popping the most shared for my favorite word "whip" - name is crazy:
"Rose Of Egypt Posing In Leather With Whip {Sex Porno Hardcore Xxx Exhib Blow Job Fetish}.wmv" :unsure:
There is NOTHING in the Content, check it out:
ed2k://|file|Rose%20Of%20Egypt%20Posing%20In%20Leather%20With%20Whip%20{Sex%20Porno%20Hardcore%20Xxx%20Exhib%20Blow%20Job%20Fetish}.wmv|4410286|FCB9C16668F8A0B41399B2C8E2443C9F|/

Only when shared alrady the eMule show in details:
Warning: The file "Rose Of Egypt Posing In Leather With Whip {Sex Porno Hardcore Xxx Exhib Blow Job Fetish}.wmv" seems to be protected with Digital Rights Management.
You will most likely not be able to use that file without a license from the originator of that file.

A bit too late, if you ask me...

Quote

Admittedly this is not so obvious and I did suggest long ago that a warning icon be placed more prominently similar to a comment/rating

Yes, yes yes yes! That would be perfect. A warning icon do NOT download this, you can't play it! Why it is not there? And why the important DRM info is awailable too late?

Quote

If a user is not looking at a files details then they've only got themselves to blame for not bothering to read the manual. I still maintain that there is no big problem with fakes so long as you take due care and use common sense.

Sadly it looks like w/o the warning sigh, users entierly lack common sense... <_<

Quote

Right-click file/details/content. The client will warn you here if it thinks the file is DRM protected or if the file header does not match file extension (0.47b on).

How can I see this BEFORE I download the file anyway?

Quote

Admittedly this is not so obvious and I did suggest long ago that a warning icon be placed more prominently similar to a comment/rating

Great idea, niclights :thumbup: Where can I bump it? :worthy: :thumbup: :bounce:

This post has been edited by PacoBell: 06 May 2007 - 03:53 PM

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#18 User is offline   niclights 

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Posted 06 May 2007 - 03:32 PM

Quote

How can I see this BEFORE I download the file anyway?


You can't. Use intuition & experience. Avoid small (<15MB wmv's) unless you are sure. Instinct tells me which are dodgy. I haven't managed to download any DRM protected material in a long time.

Quote

Where can I bump it?


Dunno. If you want to go and do the hard work searching then feel free ;)
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#19 User is offline   PacoBell 

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Posted 06 May 2007 - 04:26 PM

View Posttrodas, on Apr 20 2007, 03:56 AM, said:

And I believe Voltaire said[...]

View Postpablod, on Apr 17 2007, 01:26 PM, said:

A distorted citation of Voltaire[...]


Quote

user should know BEFORE starting download that this IS a fake DRM file! After download is added, he just become another source of malicious content to be spread = very very very bad.
How is eMule supposed to know a file is DRM'd unless it first downloads the bit that says it is? Do you expect a third party to warn you? If so, who is going to assume the burden to indexing these warnings? The servers? Maybe, but that's another significant load on top of what they already have to bear. And good luck trying to get the users to label these themselves. They're the very same people sharing them, after all. My opinion is that it's best to just report any such files to your favorite dedicated webservice and let them take care of the warnings. Aside from that, a feature request could be to give the user the choice to automatically pause any download when the encrypted/DRM bit is detected and show the reason why it was paused.

Quote

Quote

Admittedly this is not so obvious and I did suggest long ago that a warning icon be placed more prominently similar to a comment/rating

Yes, yes yes yes! That would be perfect. A warning icon do NOT download this, you can't play it! Why it is not there? And why the important DRM info is awailable too late?
I think you missed his point and I've just mentioned above why this is so.

Quote

Sadly it looks like w/o the warning sigh, users entierly [sic] lack common sense... <_<
I don't see why anybody still downloads WMVs in the first place. I say boycott that format entirely. It's so bass ackwards. :P

Quote

Great idea, niclights :thumbup: Where can I bump it? :worthy: :thumbup: :bounce:
Well, we do have a Feature Requests forum, although I'd prefer that you'd post rather than bump.
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#20 User is offline   niclights 

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Posted 06 May 2007 - 04:41 PM

I think (hope!) he meant bump the FR thread relating to that - probably better than a new one in that case?

[OT]

Quote

I don't see why anybody still downloads WMVs in the first place. I say boycott that format entirely. It's so bass ackwards.


Actually I hate to admit it but recently I have seen examples of exceptional HD quality in wmv much more efficient than avi. (Not that this tends to be the sort of wmv content on the network....) The most efficient format I have seen still remains Matroska - quite remarkable!

[/OT]
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