Official eMule-Board: Any News About A New Version? - Official eMule-Board

Stulle, on 10 February 2012 - 08:36 AM, said:

There is no money trail I pay with a pay safe card bought in a store for cash by a proxy person.

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What is illegal does not necessarily is also wrong.


So doing something right but illegal requiters you to protect yourself as good as possible.

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That is kind of the point, to develope the next generation of KAD and define the future topology and said generic algorithms.

The IP range blocking must ofcause not be static but done automatically based on some statistical analysis of the network.

Tuxman, on 10 February 2012 - 11:07 AM, said:

Do you know how vpn works?
It does not Mather how you connect to the VPN server, whats relevant is what the server offers as external IP's
I also connect to PP's servers through IPv4 but once connected i have booth IPv4 as well as IPv6 available to my dispose.


@Omnithec
So wouldn't be the best solution to create a completely new client that is compatible with eMule, but provides an own improved network and once it proves its superiority it would release from its position as the main ed2k client.

DavidXanatos, on 10 February 2012 - 09:11 PM, said:

When connected through PP's servers, there is no advantage in IPv6 for you. You cannot become more anonymous with it anyway, and "Low ID troubles" are, in this case, probably caused by PP's port forwarding system. I never get a High ID with ed2k (only Kad) when PP'd.

Do you know how a VPN works? If so, why all this rambling about buzzwords? "Awww I cannot have IPv6 behind my VPN", so what?

@Tuxman

think about it,
VPN's that provide real IPv4 addresses for each client one are expensive to run as the IP's are expensive.
Providing NATed Internet access while good for surfing is not cool for file sharing.

So as a filesharing VPN user you want an own dedicated IP address but as cheep as possible, this can be achieved with IPv6.

Those unless fielsharing becomes completely legal (meaning the abolishment of copyrights for personnel use) in Europe there will be quite some new VPN's startups opening busyness especially in legaly safe countries that dont have much IPv4 addresses.


Those IPv6 Support will be soon very much needed in any serious fielsharing client.


David X.

You sound like you are some sort of hacker on the run from everyone. This is not what most people are. And especially not most of those using eMule. Quite the opposite, actually.

Anyway, talking about what things should be like is all nice and great but I have not seen anything substantial, yet. I think SS and the other devs are quite capable of following the flood of KAD papers Nisse is posting here. Given that they still seem to be unable to devise a reliable security system of an IPv6 KAD shows that the whole thing is not really an easy talk. So lets not talk about the what should be but more about the how could it be. By we I obviously mean people like you, David, SomeSupport, netfinity (if he is still around) and whoever else is really into the whole KAD stuff. Given the limited development resources the official client has these days it might prove beneficial for the entirety of the network if a solution to the IPv6 issue would be devised under a new projects roof. One that is somewhat more open than eMule has been for the last few years. Don't take this as criticism, I am utterly undecided if this way of doing things is either good or bad. Still, it might help to get more people to contribute ideas in a more direct fashion. Especially with code versioning tools like Git available.

Sorry for the step back in answering but I couldn't come to the forum earlier.

@DavidXanatos

I'm not sure making everything from such a basic point is a good idea. I have been in a couple of extremely small information technology projects and you wouldn't believe what doing that means, even with reusable code. If it's terrible in such minute projects, can you imagine how it would be for something like eMule and the Kad network?

There are other ways of protecting the privacy of the users without rebooting the entire system. But... in both cases, I think that, if we want to keep sharing freely, we are headed for a battle where our algorithms will have to reach new heights. I think we will have to implement advanced stuff like adaptive algorithms and rudimentary artificial intelligence. Perhaps worse.

Anyway, eMule has to get moving again.

As for other things I would still like to address.

Just for the record, this conversation is going in a very dangerous direction. I suggest you leave the ethics and legal implications of illegal file sharing for another discussion. I'm not even sure the mods would allow any attempt to discuss that in this forum. Moreover, that is not the topic here. I think it's ok to analyse eMule development from the privacy safeguarding point of view, but not from that one.

I think I'm going to create a post to explain why eMule should become more anonymous for ethical and legal reason. Yes, there are ethical and legal issues that go in the way of making eMule anonymous. It is only a matter of privacy, a concept that is disappearing in a few countries (or completely gone in cases like China).

Using VPN has been made an argument for introducing IPv6 one way or another into the ed2k so there is some need to discuss it. The implications as to why somebody might want to use VPN are certainly dubious. And that is exactly why I am questioning the use of IPv6 VPN services as a legitimate argument in this discussion. Personally, I think only a tiny minority is really making use of such services and the reasons of that minority are beyond what eMule stands for in matters of development. eMule is explicitly made for sharing files and not for explicitly sharing copyrighted files that require the user to acquire any kind of extra privacy protection. Hence we should only concern ourselves with the IPv6 question if there is a reasonable number of ISPs actually supporting it. China might be a littler further in this (I don't know) but this has to be considered a regional irregularity, if you wish to call it that.

Summing it up, hastening development of an IPv6 KAD network without exactly knowing what the adoption of IPv6 will look like in terms of IP distribution is to be considered a futile attempt unless somebody comes up with proper generic solutions for arising security issues (i.e. lack of IP scarcity).

This post has been edited by Stulle: 11 February 2012 - 08:37 PM

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Using VPN and protecting once privacy is must curtenly not dubious, but a very reasonable security measure in a world where everyone is being suspected to be a terrorist and inappropriate tweets are enough to be put on a US no fligh list.

The main use for a VPN is to bypass censorship, of any kind and protecting one selfs privacy.

It does not mater if it is for leaking confidential military documents uncovering US war crimes, or violating Hollywood copyright monopoly.
Screwing censorship is always a good cause.

The right to privacy is a fundamental human right, those anonymous file sharing is completely legit per se.

And I think achieving anonymity through a VPN that allows for HighID is not contrary in anyways to eMule's development goals, as it does not negatively affect the file sharing performance.


@Omnithec
I believe I have a good overview of how much work it is to re implement eMule, and as I stated earlier it is very well manageable withing a few months.

There is a lot of code in eMule that becomes obsolete when a modern Framework is used, also there is a lot of completely redundant code (like all this different client lists).

And last but not least all this stuff mentioned earlier that can be dropped.


David X.

This post has been edited by DavidXanatos: 12 February 2012 - 09:23 AM

I did not say making eMule work along with VPN is not a desirable goal. I said that claiming that a very limited number of users using VPN is any reason to hasten development concerning IPv6 is not the way to go.

Other than that, thanks for the lecture on Anonymous and Pirate Party aims. Also, please ask yourself why Anonymous is all for open flow of information and yet seems to think doxing people is a reasonable threat and why they employ encryption methods in order to not share too much about themselves. That's a bit of irony for you. Further, ask yourself, if your need for privacy is this big would you dismount the license plates from your car or use other license plates you bought in the Russian Federation? More irony. If you want democracy you have to live democracy. Compromising property of others, blackmailing and sabotaging is not democracy. It's not being better than all the political establishment that these organizations claim to fight. It's just changing the scope of interest while employing the same dirty methods with thousands of fanboys trailing on the heels. I don't mean to convince you the aims are wrong per se but if they truly want to change something they will have to play along with the rest of the system or we will be in a whole lot of trouble sooner or later. I for one don't dream of Egyptian conditions in Germany.

DavidXanatos, on 12 February 2012 - 12:03 PM, said:

It's so blatantly wrong that almost needs no proof of being wrong.

This post has been edited by fox88: 12 February 2012 - 10:21 AM

The license plate analogy is flawed, as using the public street system is currently not a fundamental right, you need to acquire a driving license and have a properly licensed and checked car.
And on private roads you don't need an of that, and Internet is kind of a bunch of private roads.

A much better analogy would be if you would have tattoo your social security number on your forehead, would you hide it when going out of your home in order to not allow anyone who sees you to identify you.

It should not be legally possible to identify a person by the IP he is using, and proper VPN's are facilitating this.
That is as if teh state would want to put a GPS tracker chip in every new born citizen, its plain criminal.

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No its not wrong.
Censorship is a crime against human rights, those bypassing it is always right.


David X.

This post has been edited by DavidXanatos: 12 February 2012 - 10:24 AM

DavidXanatos, on 12 February 2012 - 01:23 PM, said:

I have a fundamental right not to be killed by anonymous driver.

DavidXanatos, on 12 February 2012 - 01:23 PM, said:

Welcome, child porn.
It should not be legally possible for every idiot around.

DavidXanatos, on 12 February 2012 - 01:23 PM, said:

Grow up, David.

By the way, this is not a political party meeting.

See, this is exactly the kind of argument that makes the Pirate Party incapable of gaining a real footing in the political establishment. The internet is not a bunch of private roads. You pay taxes on your internet bill as you pay taxes on your car and the fuel you use. You are required to get a license plate as you are required to get an IP from your ISP to participate. You might need safety but then, you only need it once in states like Canada, for instance (when you buy the or sell the car, usually), and you need it to ensure you won't kill yourself and countless others in the process of using the vehicle. The latter obviously not being necessary with a computer... hopefully, at least. Lastly, the internet just like any public road is public. The analogy with private roads can only be made if you talk about your LAN that is not connected to the internet. Because this is exactly how it works with private roads. Only if you physically cut the connection to any public road you are no longer obliged to follow the rules of the law, at least in Germany.

Also, VPN is widely used in corporate environments for its intended usage: securely connecting to corporate resources from a different place. No arguing with that. If you think you need to feel extra private in the internet to make sure there can be no interaction between the things you do online and the things you do in real life go ahead and do it but don't make it sound as if it is a requirement because it really is not. It is something a bunch of individualists and idealists consider necessary because they like testing their boundaries while fearing the consequences. This is not changing the system, this is just pushing away the problem just a little bit further.

Countering counterfeit is not bad per se. Our western economy is still not overrun by Asian markets because we protect our intellectual property and have been doing so for years now. Great Britain tried to do it when the industrialization started. Yet, we Germans found a way to sneak out some of those ideas and hence the industrialization started in Germany and we overtook the Brits. The question remains if the problem is truly not being able to copy any kind of software, music or movie we like or isn't it the ludicrous prices they charge. I say the latter and if I were to challenge anything it would be that. Since I don't I just go along and do what I see fit being aware of consequences it might have for me... i.e. being a poor beggar freeloading on friends who got enough money to buy me food and drink. :-P

This post has been edited by Stulle: 12 February 2012 - 10:44 AM

this is realy getting oftopic, but:

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Thats wrong, using thsi argument everythign you pay a tax on would be public, also your condoms, are thay? your are paying VAT (MwSt) tax on them, so tha ymust be public as well according to your argument, right?

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That is plain wrong, the internet is not maintained by thestate, it is a network of private interconnected networks.
The streets are nto in private hand thay are state property.

I can drive anyway I wan on any land that is not state proeprty and the owner allows me.

So if my ISP would allow me to participate without an own IP like NATing all his clients thats his right, and if Iw ant ic an open such an ISP, and in fact many mobile ISP's do exactly that, they allow you to pay anonymusly and in addition you get a shared IP, so thare is no way of prosecution.

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Excuse me very much, but have you been livng under a rock for the hast half a year, the PPD scorers regulara above 5 % in Germany since they 7% victory in Berlin, they are entering the parliament during the next election thats sure.

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Thats exactly the problem.

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You have afundamental right not to be killed by a driver, it does not mather if he is anonymouse or not.

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Yea, lets install state controlled cammeras in every home on the planet, this way CP can be finally effectively defeated.
You support this, right?


David X.

This post has been edited by DavidXanatos: 12 February 2012 - 10:54 AM

I'm only saying this, the reason the Pirates get high votes is not because they have a sound understanding of what politics involve. It is the same reason the FDP got high ratings in the last national election. People are dissatisfied and search for alternatives. The Pirates appeals to young people which is great for them. It does not mean they are capable of changing anything. Look at our "Go Green" Party in Germany. They took almost 20 years to even get into a ruling coalition. The first time they get to be leading a coalition in a federal state they thrived on the Japanese atomic misery and the hype around some huge project some people did not like. What remained of that? They are building the train station, mission accomplished - NOT! The Pirates are no better than that, they won't change nothing unless they learn to compromise (their beliefs) and start working the system. Being in a parliament means very little if all you do is moan, bitch and complain. Hypes end and what is left after them is what has been well established.

Edit: Actually, I am going into the IP thing again... You should wish the internet was public. Because if you want private companies to be the only ruler of the internet you should ask yourself at whose merit you would rather want to be. Companies thriving for cash or politicians thriving for reelection in order to retain their financial benefits. Without some laws protecting the information you leave with the companies the ISPs could just start selling the personal information of their clients to the companies that want to sue you for exorbitant sums. It remains, the internet is public because anyone can access it quite easily. There is no one owner and that is basically the idea of public property.

This post has been edited by Stulle: 12 February 2012 - 11:07 AM

Well, just yesterday hundreds of thousands of people went on the streets in over 200 cities against the enforcement of intellectual property rights.
Against ACTA, for a free Internet where every netizen is free to share culture, without commercial restrains.

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I believe thats wrong, the legal definition of public property is "owned by the state".

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The same apples for everything, for example medical care, for example dentists that are almost all private.


David X.

This post has been edited by DavidXanatos: 12 February 2012 - 11:12 AM

See the edit in my previous post. And on accord of ACTA, I am not saying they are wrong and they are in fact making use of their democratic rights which is splendid. Still, this does not mean the Pirate Party by itself can make change happen in a political environment. Initiating a protest is a good thing to do but it does not magically solve any problem and people eventually tire of protesting. I know second hand from one of the police officers making sure Stuttgart remains a safe place despite unpopular construction sites.

Edit: The state is the representation of the people. Hence owned by the state means owned by the people and not by any one person or entity. And yeah, many things have been privatized. Yet, the legislation extends its influence onto those areas. Saying I want guaranteed anonymity and the lack of any regulation leaves you at the whims of the corporations. Not quite very enjoyable either.

This post has been edited by Stulle: 12 February 2012 - 11:18 AM

Stulle, on 12 February 2012 - 11:10 AM, said:

it is however better than to be left at the whims of the state, as the state has the monopole on violence (a.k.a. police). And you cant just like that chaneg your state or start a new one.

You can however easly change your ISP or start an own one.

DavidXanatos, on 12 February 2012 - 01:51 PM, said:

It does matter if the killer can be found and punished - or not.
Maybe you know how to find anonymous criminal in totally anonymous community, do you?

DavidXanatos, on 12 February 2012 - 01:51 PM, said:

Wrong.
Besides you did not even try to explain how would anonymity help in defeating criminal activities in the net (CP here was just one example).

fox88, on 12 February 2012 - 12:30 PM, said:

Well, when you are robbed on the street the robber also is anonymous, but still you can try to catch him when he wants to sell the stuff he stole.

You just have to catch him red handed.

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I don't even said that it would.


What i said was that there are crimes, terrible crimes but still privacy is more important than preventing this crimes from happening.
It is more important for the people to not have a cammera in their homes than preventing the manufacturing of CP.

The same apples on the internet Privacy a.k.a. anonymity is more important.
It is more important for the people to not have a tracable IP than preventing the spreading of CP.

David X.

What you are saying is basically that you would like to live in an anonymous society that has no means of identification. If this is truly your believe you are in for a big surprise once you got that kind of society. You might not be up to real bad shit but somebody else is. And once that shit is up on your porch you wish you knew who did it.

The only thing we really need is some more balance on which things are prosecuted to which extent. Being utterly anonymous is just the first step to loosing the identity and I don't want to live in an ant hill.